"StreetComplete for experienced mappers"

[smichel17]

It seems like there are two groups of mappers using SC in different ways:

• People who (almost) only contribute to OSM via StreetComplete. I'd put myself solidly in this category. Around 3k ⭐s with SC puts me around the top 5% of SC users, I think; I can count my other OSM edits on my fingers. And I intend to keep it that way, partially due to lack of interest, partially to preserve my perspective as an outsider.

  • For me, the main attraction of SC is that it saves me from having to learn details of OSM tagging. It gives me something to do on walks, and some purpose. Like a more meaningful Pokemon Go.

• People who use other editors and are perhaps more involved in the OSM ecosystem. "Experienced mappers", for lack of a better term. I think the majority of regulars in the comments here fall into this category.

  • I can't really speak for you all, but I imagine that it's similar and different from me. Similar = also partially "something to do on walks". Different = an efficient tool for adding information that requires surveying.

Most of the time these use cases overlap remarkably well, but I've noticed some times recently where they diverge. For example, in #3002, it is a totally reasonable assumption that any note or comment of mine was created via SC, but for someone using other editors, this is no longer true.

I'm wondering if it would make sense to make a "StreetComplete for experienced mappers". It wouldn't necessarily have more settings or features, but it would be built with different assumptions about its use. Not sure of the right way to implement it — could be a secret toggle like Android developer settings, a separate build flavor, or a soft fork, like Zazolc (which would probably be a good starting point for a project like this see below).

Also not sure if there are enough differences to make this worth doing, but I figure there are enough to open a discussion and talk about it :)

[matkoniecz]

or a soft fork, like Zazolc (which would probably be a good starting point for a project like this).

No it would not be :) There may be for example quests that will crash SC if you answer them (it is intended only to signal that I should edit with Vespucci) and cryptic text that will be understood only by myself and tags without broad community support and experimental not-yet-working quests that sometimes apply buggy edits.

This is intended as a personal fork and there is no support whatsoever for other using it (though feel free to look at code and may use it in your own fork if you understand the code!).

If someone wants their own fork - I recommend branching from SC itself.

[smichel17]

I did say "starting point", but point taken :)

[rugk]

There may be for example quests that will crash SC if you answer them

It's a feature, not a bug! Just add a button "Do not crash" as an optional alternative. 😉

[kmpoppe]

Even though I've only started to really contribute to the map myself a few years ago, I would count myself into the experienced users as per @smichel17 's definition.

SC is a wonderful tool, because it removes almost all barriers to updating the map. I for one don't run around with my desktop PC on a trolley so an editor that does exactly what's required to correctly update an object is wonderful to have at hand.

Anyhow, I would be in favour of an expert mode as in: Have a button that shows me all tags of the object in question in a table view and lets me change them. Why? let's say I get question if the opening hours of the shop "ABC Lettershop" are still correct. Now they might, yet the shop's now called "XYZ Appliances". Today, I'd have to leave a Note and change it later.

Going one step back into what's already on SC another way could be to list all quests that WOULD fit the object (like shop=, amenity=) and give the user a tick box to indicate which information need updating and then proceed as if the quest had not been answered.

These are just very rough ideas and I'm well aware that @westnordost has very limited time available for these major changes but bouncing ideas can never hurt, can it?

Kai

[mnalis]

There already is such feature, just long press on location you're interested in and choose open location in other app and choose Vespucci or your other full-fledged editor of choice. Also, see #471 for discussion and resolution on such Expert mode.

bouncing ideas can never hurt, can it?

Theoretically, If devels are subscribed to discussions on their projects, sure it can hurt, as there is only 24h in a day 😄 But unlikely to become an issue, so feel free to throw ideas around!

[smichel17]

I also wonder whether an updated UI for Vespucci might be a better route than a different flavor of StreetComplete. What is it about SC that keeps you folks using it (presumably often alongside Vespucci)?

[mnalis]

I also wonder whether an updated UI for Vespucci might be a better route than a different flavor of StreetComplete. What is it about SC that keeps you folks using it (presumably often alongside Vespucci)?

I don't think so, unless Vespucci reimplemented whole of SC into itself.

SC is being much less cluttered visually, there is no chance of accidentally changing something unrelated, it's having questions pre-made, and most importantly, editing is much quicker with no need to think. For example in StreetComplete:

• I'm presented with lit quest so I click on it
• I click on yes

This is it. 2 clicks and no thinking nor researching needed. In Vespucci:

• determine what needs to be edited (see directed vs. non-directed discussion). You can activate Osmose in Vespucci to indicate things that are broken/missing, but it is not the same thing as SC does, so won't help in this specific example. This can be a lot of work in itself if you don't have particular idea of what exactly you want to edit but only a general vague feeling of "wanting to make the map better".
• click unlock button
• (extra zoom in, as there are much more things that Vespucci can edit than StreetComplete)
• click on street
• (choose that you want to edit the street, and not some of relations it is in)
• click on edit (pen) button
• Notice it does not have lit tag which you want
• click on +abc
• (scroll and) select checkbox on the Lit tag to indicate it is lit
• confirm edit with checkmark icon
• click back icon to unselect way
• click lock icon again to prevent yourself from breaking stuff while panning/zooming
• (If you have autoupload enabled in SC, there there is more clicks to actually upload data, but it is per-session and not per-quest, so no biggie)

The reason why is SC preferred for any of the stuff it supports should be clear even without reading and just visually comparing the paragraphs above. 😄 Also, you can use StreetComplete with gloves on in winter, something I would never recommend in Vespucci (it needs more precision).

On the other hand, when adding elements especially ways, polygons etc, or when needed full power of editing tags, Vespucci is undisputed mobile king. If you have mobile phone with you, you can practically do anything you can on a desktop.

[matkoniecz]

Excellent summary - see also opening hours editors in StreetComplete and Vespucci.

Vespucci one allows to enter bizarre and complex rules - but at cost of making harder to add simple cases.

[Helium314]

What should actually be in such an "expert edition"?

Some ideas

• edit tags directly
• per-quest settings
  • element selection (e.g. to stop asking for sidewalks on trunk roads, or ask for roof shape of higher buildings)
  • answers (e.g. choose which maxspeed tag to use)
• additional quests that don't have tags for all answers (e.g. telephone number for shop)
• show POIs
• create notes in gpx file
• quest filters / presets / profiles
• "invert quest order" button

(I have some of these in a more or less working state in my personal edition)

[smichel17]

What should actually be in such an "expert edition"?

Perhaps a batch mode? e.g. #3098

[Helium314]

Another update, adding optional zoom with volume buttons and a quest asking for level of some POIs inside malls and retail buildings.

I have the impression there isn't much interest in such a version, so I don't really want to keep updating this version...

What I could do is simply publish the exact version I am using, which includes some additional small adjustments tuned for my personal taste.
Then I would be open for issues / PRs regarding experimental features or quests that are not suitable for SC.

[mnalis]

@Helium314 could you add README-Helium314.md to your repository listing changes/features that you've added? It is getting hard to keep track. Then it would likely be just fine to publish whatever you are using. Just keep different improvements in different commits...

Interested parties can then download .apk and see how it works and suggest what could be improved. People who want to test some experimental/expert feature usually won't mind that some background color is also changed (or whatever other small adjustments you have made for your personal taste) etc.

That's what I do, download your (or some other) version and see/test what I would like, and then git cherry-pick those into my fork (I still have separate fork, as for some of the features what I want seems to be in minority, like for example #2692 (comment))

If some experimental feature become polished enough that it might be considered for inclusion in upstream SC, then new branch/PR can be created for just that from existing commits.

[Helium314]

Issues activated, readme updated: https://github.com/Helium314/StreetComplete/tree/my_modifications

[dlichtistw]

What should actually be in such an "expert edition"?

• User Defined Quests: The user can enter a filter string and a list of add/update/remove tag commands to define custom quests. Complexity would be limited, but it could help in prototyping new quests and sharing them between "experts".

[westnordost]

High contrast dark mode sounds interesting. Got pics?

…

On July 3, 2021 12:08:22 PM GMT+02:00, Helium314 ***@***.***> wrote: > @Helium314 hey, it would interesting if you could document somewhere on https://github.com/Helium314/StreetComplete what changes from upstream you have working / mostly working, as others might be interested to try them out! (I know I am) What I have: * POI display for some types (sometimes not displaying existing POIs) * contact quests (website and telephone) * disable auto-download if auto-upload is disabled (because sometimes auto-download is annoying and loads uninteresting areas) * higher location check frequency (otherwise my phone sometimes delivers really bad precision) * adjusted dark theme for higher contrast * button to temporarily reverse quest order (find "hidden" quests without hiding or adjusting quest order) * gpx notes (without images) * profiles for quest visibility and order (somewhat buggy) * some small modifications to quests (no sidewalks for trunk, more buildings for which levels are asked, allow paved surface without adding a note, different order for cycleways answers). will put a version for testing on github in the next few days -- You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: #3003 (reply in thread)

-- Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Gerät mit K-9 Mail gesendet.

[Helium314]

two main reasons for this:

• more contrast between "generic" ground (now darker) and buildings (edges now much brighter), which helps a lot when viewing my screen in bright sunlight
• more "natural" colors for water, grass and forest areas to make them easier recognizable

[smichel17]

I like the changes on land. In particular, the area in the middle of the top center square building looks blue, like water, in the lower shot; in the upper shot it is clearly land. The increased contrast of buildings also makes the small buildings (which I presume are sheds) just below easier to spot.

I'm lukewarm on the water change. I think it would be good to make it a little more blue, but I think your change went too far. In particular, I don't like the area where the bridge crosses. Maybe somewhere in between the two?

[Helium314]

Note that the colors are adjusted for my phone screen, not any other.
On my computer screen it definitely looks different, probably similar to what you see.
But on my phone I get a nice dark blue.

[smichel17]

Other issues like #3084 (comment) (cc @matkoniecz @Helium314) have me more convinced that this would be a good idea. It's silly for multiple people to independently maintain the same feature in their own private forks.

I think the defining feature of this version of SC is that it's okay to wade into the "unclear" space. For example, the SC criteria "🤔 Any answer the user can give must have an equivalent tagging (Quest should not reappear to other users when solved by one)" does not need to apply, because the user is expected to know when there is no clear answer or the data needs to be fixed from a different editor.

I think this version would be useful as a playground/prototype/test-bed for SC, where there is not so much focus on polish or code quality. Then if a feature from this version seems useful more generally, it can be polished up to SC standards.

[Helium314]

So we have some ideas of what would be in this version, and we already have some of the code.

We need some github repo to put the code, someone willing to keep it up to date with SC, and some people who actually want to use it (didn't get much feedback on my apks so far, no idea wheter anyone except mnalis actually tried it)

[Helium314]

In case anyone is interested:
New release available at https://github.com/Helium314/StreetComplete/releases/tag/v34.0b1

Modifications inspired by issues/discussions:

• added quests
  • ask for service building operator (Service building operator #2859)
  • ask for level of places inside buildings (New quest: Which level is this POI on? #1487)
  • ask for phone and website of certain places (Phone number for restaurants #2043, Ask for phone/website/email for shops #2839)
  • ask for cuisine of restaurants (Quest: What is the primary cuisine of this amenity=restaurant|cafe|fast_food #103, Restaurant cuisine #1938)
• quest changes
  • add "private" other answer to some road/path quests (Give the users the possibility to mark private ground as such #2051)
  • add "demolished" other answer to building quest (add answer "Does not exist anymore" to the building type quest. #2719)
  • move "none" answer for cycleway quest to more accessible position (sort of related to Make it easier to reach top items in "Select" windows (e.g. cycleway quest) #2651)
  • add "zebra" answer to crossing quest (Extend crossing quest #2087)
  • per-quest settings for some quests, e.g. allows choice of used maxspeed tag
• show certain POIs and fixmes as large clickable dots (View/Update/Add POI-Mode #844, Show FIXME tags and allow for additional information #3084)
• zoom using volume buttons (optional, Zoom using the +/- volume button #3095)
• show quest geometries (optional, Highlight roads that have a quest #1576)
• disable the new daytime filter (optional)
• quick settings menu
  • switch profiles
  • reverse quest order (easier access to quests "behind" other quests)
  • level filter (Add level filtering widget to display quests / declutter screen #2874)
• show "hide" button like "ok" button (Make option to hide a quest accessible more easily #3023)
• allow adding notes to gpx file (without photos, Enable "Note to self" #1992)
• use last known location as initial location (if less than 30 seconds old and reasonably precise)

For list of more complete list of changes see readme at https://github.com/Helium314/StreetComplete

[mnalis]

It was mentioned before in some issue, but perhaps such "expert mode" should be unlocked only after user having proven not to be a newbie - maybe by looking username up at HDYC ?

[jidanni]

All I know is if the boss sends me out on a mission to check and correct
all electric pole numbers on rural road 33A, and during so I notice that
there is one pole entirely missing from the map, it would be great to
have the ability to add things, not only correct things.

[mnalis]

You can always long press at that location and leave a note (with picture) and then later enter it into the map. Or you can long press and open another more full-blown editor (like Vespucci) at that location.

Problem with adding things to the map is that you would need to know were all the other similar things are to be sure you're not adding duplicates. You would also need not only to add power tower, but also connect it to the correct power line, put it into correct relation etc. Perhaps something like that might become possible with Layers idea.
I still think Vespucci is your better bet for such complex tasks.

[jidanni]

I was just thinking about simple wooden power poles. I could just quickly copy a nearby one, and then change the plate number, and then enter it onto the map. They don't have a line connecting them to worry about, at least on the map.

[mnalis]

@jidanni Oh. People over here who care about the power poles care as much (or more) about the power lines connecting them. Out of curiosity, does your power company (?) depends on OSM for its database of power poles, or do you have your own database overlayed on top of OSM basemap (like GPX points inside OsmAnd or some other solution)?

[jidanni]

The power company makes pubic a list of poles and their coordinates.
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-tw/2021-October/001478.html
Wires connecting them are not public.
The power company isn't very familiar about OSM.

[mnalis]

If they publish under ODbL, perhaps the data could be imported, probably using some Conflator to catch already mapped nodes? And thus avoid all that manual work of mapping them on the ground.

For entering random POIs while mapping on the ground, I usually use OsmAnd or Vespucci (as StreetComplete can only leave notes, which requires manual postprocessing later, which is more work)

[Helium314]

Some summary after having my version on github for ~6 months, with issues and PRs enabled as requested in this discussion:

• one issue about a bug with satellite background (which I ended up disabling after it got worse in later versions)
• no PRs (expected from prior comments: quests not acceptable for StreetComplete and maybe experimental "enhancements")
• no further feedback (but at least some people were testing it)

Given the low amount of feedback / reactions, I'm actually glad I decided to simply publish my own version, containing only very few and simple things I don't use regularly, instead of attempting to create an "experienced mapper edition" with more features.

[mnalis]

Just to note (for people stumbling on this discussion) that since that time, more interest in advanced features have been shown, and it did result in @Helium314 making it more generally targeted (i.e. not just for personal use) SCEE ("StreetComplete Expert Edition") fork.