Obsolete mods #37272

ymber · 2020-01-21T09:23:48Z

Summary

SUMMARY: Mods "Cut down on in-tree mods"

Purpose of change

Half the mods in the source tree are things we don't want to maintain. Some of them are stuff that should have been added to core in the first place. The mods we maintain here should be quality changes to the core experience unless there's a good technical reason something should be a mod.

Describe the solution

Obsolete mods. Once 0.E. lands we need to delete all the obsolete mods that have been collecting for a while.

Testing

Obsoleted mods continue to work in games with them. New games can't add obsolete mods. All works as expected.

AlexanderBodnya · 2020-01-21T11:43:20Z

Most of those mods were introduced in response to changes, which were considered controversial (at least for some people), like fast healing mod for example, or bionic manual installation. Why delete those? People are using them.

Tairesh · 2020-01-21T12:04:21Z

I suppose to delete Cataclysm DDA mod and return to the original Cataclysm. We do not need obsolete DDA in 0.E

Night-Pryanik · 2020-01-21T12:11:45Z

I suppose to delete Cataclysm DDA mod and return to the original Cataclysm. We do not need obsolete DDA in 0.E

Cataclysm: DDA isn't a mod, it's a fork of original Cataclysm.

Tairesh · 2020-01-21T12:22:18Z

Cataclysm: DDA isn't a mod

It is
https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/tree/master/data/mods/dda

ZhilkinSerg · 2020-01-21T12:34:19Z

Cataclysm: DDA isn't a mod

It is
https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/tree/master/data/mods/dda

Don't be ridiculous.

ghost · 2020-01-21T12:46:55Z

Oh I see - having DDA flag as a mod with its own directory etc is somewhat strange. And since you can't even start game without it, "core" and paths could be set in C, getting rid of that confusing 'mod'.

Inglonias · 2020-01-21T13:07:22Z

This seems like a pretty drastic cut to make. I'm not necessarily against this, but I am concerned that you're being a little overzealous here. What makes the chosen mods "obsolete", exactly?

I-am-Erk · 2020-01-21T14:59:30Z

I do think this PR is going to require a list of obsolete mods and a rationale for removing them. I'm not sure I agree with every removal on the list.

KorGgenT · 2020-01-21T15:34:06Z

Most of those mods were introduced in response to changes, which were considered controversial (at least for some people), like fast healing mod for example, or bionic manual installation. Why delete those? People are using them.

in a general sense, reactionary mods are not a good thing. they support some idea that the thing they're "reverting" wasn't a good idea in the first place, so why even have done that in the first place? It also encourages players to tell other players to use such mods, and masks issues that need to be fixed with said new feature. a good example is simplified nutrition: it existed, so people used it, so nobody fixed the issues with nutrition.

anothersimulacrum · 2020-01-21T17:59:16Z

With the current list, this PR resolves
#35737, #31265, #26364, #25519, #25444, #25294
And probably does something towards #36171

Wayticus · 2020-01-21T18:09:58Z

Wouldn't a simpler solution be if one doesn't like these mods to just no use them? Or if one feesl they are clogging up the mods list, remove them from their game, instead of trying to do it to everyone else's game.
Really all this is going to do is make it so there is a new mod that reverts these changes for the people who like using them but don't know how to re-activate the mods themselves.

TechyBen · 2020-01-21T18:16:30Z

Oh I see - having DDA flag as a mod with its own directory etc is somewhat strange. And since you can't even start game without it, "core" and paths could be set in C, getting rid of that confusing 'mod'.

I think this is done to make total conversion (or updates/changes etc in general) easier. Also much easier to delete the bulk "mod" file/not include it and run the base game engine for testing, rather than finding the files/folders/content and adding a separate build option.

Maleclypse · 2020-01-21T18:19:22Z

@anothersimulacrum

Were #35737 and #31265 not resolved by the recent update to Modular Turrets/Salvaged Robots? It wasn't my PR so I don't know. But it was just merged in the last few days.

TechyBen · 2020-01-21T18:19:43Z

Most of those mods were introduced in response to changes, which were considered controversial (at least for some people), like fast healing mod for example, or bionic manual installation. Why delete those? People are using them.

in a general sense, reactionary mods are not a good thing. they support some idea that the thing they're "reverting" wasn't a good idea in the first place, so why even have done that in the first place? It also encourages players to tell other players to use such mods, and masks issues that need to be fixed with said new feature. a good example is simplified nutrition: it existed, so people used it, so nobody fixed the issues with nutrition.

For item mods though, games like KSP, Minecraft and many others benefit. But they often use different distribution methods and are not "mainline", as this pull request touches on. If CDDA ever uses an external distributor (Steam etc), then a Workshop feature would be so popular (but I also hate Steams forced updates that break mod update cycles :P ). XD

anothersimulacrum · 2020-01-21T18:24:42Z

@Maleclypse #31265 I think was fixed by something or other, #35737 I don't know enough about what that update did to say if it was or not. It's quite possible it was.

sayke · 2020-01-21T18:46:16Z

Let's see... This has grandiose assertions about what "we" supposedly want (that are the opposite of what lots of players want), no discussion of how mods act as test environments for new features and different ways to play, no list of specific mods the author doesn't like, no specific rationale for why the author doesn't like them, complete dismissal of all the time and effort that core devs and mod devs put into maintaining mods...

This is a troll PR, right?

NotFuji · 2020-01-21T19:45:36Z

Are there any outstanding issues with Urban Development that would necessitate obsoleting it?

I-am-Erk · 2020-01-21T19:48:26Z

Custwist and I are going to take over UD and work on gradually mainlining whatever's worth mainlining in it and the other building mods; anything else will get obsoleted.

arijust · 2020-01-21T20:24:19Z

RIP, the rest of mods for this game.

I-am-Erk · 2020-01-21T20:49:18Z

I'm genuinely confused on peoples' response. Nobody is removing the ability to add mods to the game, and there will still be mods packaged with core, including some of the ones in this list: this PR is in draft. Nobody claims rimworld can't be modded, yet it doesn't ship with a single mod bundled.

Nacarbac · 2020-01-21T21:06:26Z

And RimWorld didn't ship with two dozen "world generation options and then decide to strip them out. The order of operations is important.

Perhaps a better solution would be to note when mods break. Then, if there is no desire to do the work, append a note which would appear in the mod selection menu that if a player wants to fix X, they can do so and are encouraged to go here to post the corrected JSON info like any other fix.

It might be a good way to broaden the scope of players interested in contributing.

I-am-Erk · 2020-01-21T21:19:58Z

The order of operations is important.

Not really. No core function of the game is being removed, or even really changed. Our project is constantly adding and removing content, this is no different on that end.

Perhaps a better solution would be to note when mods break. Then, if there is no desire to do the work

The best solution is to have a clear criterion on what we'll support as mainline mods, and what constitutes an "orphaned" mod needing a new curator. Responding to broken things is certainly a part of that: see the link a few posts up for more information. It's not all of it.

esotericist · 2020-01-21T22:01:12Z

The best solution is to have a clear criterion on what we'll support as mainline mods, and what constitutes an "orphaned" mod needing a new curator.

which, fortunately, is already a solution in progress.

NotFuji · 2020-01-26T20:36:43Z

A lot of the blacklist mods would be better suited as world settings. Things like nutrition, no revives, easy bionics, etc are all things players wont know that can be toggled, regardless of if they still can.

esotericist · 2020-01-26T20:47:02Z

A lot of the blacklist mods would be better suited as world settings. Things like nutrition, no revives, easy bionics, etc are all things players wont know that can be toggled, regardless of if they still can.

Putting them directly in world settings:

Clutters the list of settings, making it hard for users to find all the settings they might care about and formulate opinions on (which in effect reduces overall player agency, rather than increasing it)
Implies they are meant to be a core experience option (which is emphatically not the case)
Conflicts with the goal of providing curated experience with the game as shipped (be it the core game alone, or with specific mods altering the experience in directed ways)

"More obvious choices good, less obvious choices bad" is an axiom that many people uphold, yet has proven time and time again to be deleterious to the average user.

Inglonias · 2020-01-26T20:58:02Z

After looking at various mods for my documentation update, I realized that the No revival mod is a pretty special case right now that bears pointing out. To make a long story short, while reading the mod's JSON data makes it clear what it does, that "monster_adjustment" object that it uses isn't documented anywhere. I'd do it myself, but I don't really know how it works, and if I recall correctly, that JSON structure was implemented so the mod would keep working after LUA support got dropped. I strongly advise that someone who understands how that works document it.

Inglonias · 2020-01-26T21:01:49Z

I've just posted a PR for the improved MODDING.md documentation file (#37419)

I-am-Erk · 2020-01-28T05:58:38Z

All right, well, we've put out the call for maintainers in a few places and still nothing. I'll merge this and perhaps among the inevitable salt, someone will be willing to step up and take charge.

Mister-Cultist · 2020-01-28T07:28:10Z

another entry in "randomly cutting content people use and adding nothing to replace it"

I-am-Erk · 2020-01-28T07:41:39Z

Nothing has been cut.

ZhilkinSerg · 2020-01-28T07:48:44Z

another entry in "randomly cutting content people use and adding nothing to replace it"

You have no idea what you are talking about.

shellspeed1 · 2020-01-28T07:49:54Z

So, how would I go about using some of these mods now?

ZhilkinSerg · 2020-01-28T07:51:33Z

Obsolete mods are still working as previously in existing worlds.

shellspeed1 · 2020-01-28T07:51:45Z

Okay, what about new ones.

ZhilkinSerg · 2020-01-28T07:56:13Z

You get non-obsolete mod and use it. Just as you do with any other third party mod.

ghost · 2020-01-28T09:16:17Z

another entry in "randomly cutting content people use and adding nothing to replace it"

If you dont have anything productive or at all relevant to say on a PR, then dont comment.
Nothing has been cut, and the obsoletion is not random, people can still use it, and there is nothing that needs to be replaced because none of this was in the main game anyway.

Malorn-Deslor · 2020-01-28T10:55:42Z

Well this was certainly a rather contested topic. Reading through all of this, there was one thing that I couldn't quite figure out. Just what criteria is being used to decide which mods are 'obsolete'? Several people such as I-am-erk, and various others mentioned the need for such a criteria, but I couldn't find where anything was actually outlined.

I certainly understand removing mods which are partially broken or require overly complex maintenance, but looking through the commit list, it is remarkably long and contains a lot of mods that I thought were functioning properly?

Were mods such as those which removed ants actually malfunctioning? Or those which prevented reviving? I personally don't use either of those mods, in fact I don't think I use any of the mods which were removed, but the rapidity and lack of clear-cut standards for removal is alarming. As a mere humble player, it makes me fear that something like no fungal monsters, bonic slots, or stats-though-X might be removed next.

It seemed that a lack of maintainers was listed as a major problem with the current mods, would that mean that said mods could be reintroduced if someone stepped up to maintain them? Or are all of these removals based on 'how the game should be played' or somesuch?

Again, I suppose merely asking for clarification of policy on mods in general, mainlined mods, and what makes them qualified for removal. Many of the mods removed seemed to be those which simplified the game in some way, does that mean something generic guns (which thankfully was just restored to working order) would be next on the chopping block?

I'm sorry if I sound fearful, but it was as surprising long list of mods that were removed, even if none of them affected. And when I bounced to the git expecting months of conversation and consideration, there was only a week. That's a major change in just a week, especially given the notable lack of consensus.

Thank you all for your time and contributions, hopefully I'm merely overlooking something that is obvious.

Malorn-Deslor · 2020-01-28T11:10:29Z

Ah, as it turns out, there actually is one I use, took me quite a while to realize it. Turns out int-based-learning was removed

If possible, could that be used as an example of the thought process behind deciding to obsolete a mod? Given it was not a 'blacklist' mod but rather a balance mod, it does not qualify based merely on that, what was the reasoning? Was it not working properly? Was it tremendously difficult to maintain? I'm just trying to, using an example, understand what makes a mod 'bad' in this context.

shellspeed1 · 2020-01-28T12:21:22Z

malorn, just go ahead and move it to another folder and give it a new mod ident for now until this is all figured out. At this point it sounds like they may be reworking how mods work altogether which may break alot of older ones. Not much we can do until it actually happens.

Unrepentant-Atheist · 2020-01-28T13:37:31Z

Just remove all the mods, problem solved.

KorGgenT · 2020-01-28T13:43:10Z

https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/blob/master/doc/IN_REPO_MODS.md

For those wanting clarification as to what is a mod and what qualifies for obsoletion. @Malorn-Deslor
Additionally, there is quite a bit of chatter here that isn't very constructive conversation any more. I think we've said all there is to be said in this PR at this time.

kevingranade · 2020-01-30T16:00:23Z