Balance bionic power use for realistic values #34456
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| @@ -447,7 +447,7 @@ void map::generate_lightmap( const int zlev ) | |||
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| if( g->u.has_active_bionic( bionic_id( "bio_night" ) ) ) { | |||
| for( const tripoint &p : points_in_rectangle( cache_start, cache_end ) ) { | |||
| if( rl_dist( p, g->u.pos() ) < 15 ) { | |||
| if( rl_dist( p, g->u.pos() ) < 2 ) { | |||
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Please read about Artificial Night Generator in PR's description
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Oh I missed your explanation sorry.
Looking at your math couldn't you make the power draw 841 kJ?
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We have only a little over 2000 kJ available. What would be the point of that bionic if it's unusable?
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Also power draw that high is unrealistic for any normal device.
KorGgenT
added
Bionics
I don't see any change in the implated night vision. Can you maybe change the description of your PR to make it clear what changes and what does not? |
Isn't it clear? Everything in description is changed unless stated otherwise. |
This seems wrong. We assume a character can lift 10 kg per 1 point of strength. |
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Ok, corrected. I have actually took carry weight before. |
It is a lot. The brain uses, apparently, 20W I'm pretty sure adding that much extra heat to the brain would be very fatal. Bionic processors are probably notable for being lower power. I would say like, 5W passive, possibly spiking when it is actually used?
Physics, Work (joules) = Force * distance. Assuming the blade is 1 meter long and weighs 1kg, it requires 1 Joule to extend. 1000W is 1000 Joule / second. That would be enough to extend and retract the blade 500 times in that second. That isn't so much a mono-molecular blade as it is a hacksaw. So even with terrible efficiency, 50W is much more reasonable. Same goes for the other things where its just a motor or whatever. |
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Add me to the camp that thinks 100W would be fatal. I remember a sci-fi or a cyberpunk story saying 400 mA is enough to kill. |
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What does "10W instant" mean? Not 10 specifically but an instant wattage. A Watt is energy per second and you store energy, does this mean it drains at 10W for an instantaneous amount of time? If so that would mean 10J, unless I'm misunderstanding how this is described. |
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Yes, it means 10J :) |
RDru
changed the title
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I have done a revision of all bionics. |
RDru
changed the title
This is the status quo, but it's also crazy wrong, it's at least twice what it should be. |
Why? An average survivor with default 8 strength should be able to lift only 40 kilograms? |
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I was thinking about carrying capacity, which is 4kg per point of strength with no penalty, which is the number I consider to be about 2x too high. |
Yeah, exactly this. |
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I'm confused and don't know if I should change anything :) |
Co-Authored-By: Aloxaf <[email protected]>
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It seems like a problem to try to implement/balance a system where you have such a huge range of power values. I can't imagine how this wouldn't translate into either a) energy-intense modules like Chain Lightning being effectively impossible to use or b) energy-cheap modules like IF vision being effectively free. If players are going to be using 100,000+ J of energy for some bionics, it seems needlessly kludgy to then force them to track bionics that are consuming 1-2J at a time (i.e. .001% or less their storage). Either some level of normalization is needed, or alternatively, very cheap CBMs should be made freely toggleable. |
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This pull request has been mentioned on Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead. There might be relevant details there: https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/is-the-bionics-nerf-intentional/21601/2 |
Maybe it would make sense to split bionic power into two types? Battery Banks and Capacitive System CBM. Battery power would function, more or less, how it currently does. It would be used for powering active CBMs that consume some amount of power every turn they're active. Capacitive power would be what is drained to turn systems on or off, or fire CBMs that require large spikes of energy. Capacitors would be charged from Battery Banks, but unlike them, would discharge at a rate proportional to the amount of charge stored in them already, (possibly differences between civilian grade ones and military grade ones?) and like in real life, have a lower energy density compared to batteries. They would only be charged on demand by the CBM you activate, or if activated by the player, the Capacitive CBM would begin to charge to full power. High-power CBMs would either need you to pre-charge or would have an activation delay, as they need the capacitors to charge first. The power transferred to the capacitors is basically lost if not used somehow. So for example, to fire Chain Lightning, you'd need at least a Military Grade version of the Capacitor System CBM. Activating Chain Lighting would discharge all the energy in the capacitor, and do damage proportional to the amount of energy discharged. Activating the Cloaking System, without pre-charging, would start charging the capacitor bank to the level needed for the Cloaking System to activate, so it would have some delay unless you pre-charged. Then it would presumably drain some constant amount of power from Batteries. IIRC, there's already a Capacitive System CBM that's used to become invulnerable to lightning? Ideally this would supplant it, allowing lighting to charge your capacitors, but only until they're full, at which point it starts to do damage again. |
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I was actually thinking about splitting bionics into components. Not only batteries and capacitors, but also things like processors, memory banks, fuel storage, software. |
Complex hydraulic systems are not that energy efficient. They start out pretty efficient, but each time you have to re-direct the hydraulic flow you multiply that efficiency by 80% to 95% depending on your price point, and that's for joints that don't move, never mind hinge joints (elbow) or ball joints (shoulder). According to a study mentioned in this blog post, the average energy efficiency of fluid power systems in 2014 was 21%. I think that would be a decent estimate to start from. That would change the numbers to 2kW used + 8kW wasted for 10kW total. |
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Setting for 10k then |
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Applause! Glad to see bionics getting a workover and more physics respect. Quibble: Night generator doesn't need to counter entire spectrum, only the visible. Perhaps lower the power requirement or extend range some. |
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Few suggestions right quick. What is the power draw of repair nanobots? I think it is still 5 kJ? Then I also imagine the Olfactory Mask would have similar power draw to Uncanny Dodge 6 W since it affects the whole body. Remote Controls also use a pretty negligible amount of power. I could see it however using 1 W every 24 turns. Then I feel like the integrated tool set is a weird one. as a welding tool, https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-wattage-of-single-phase-welding-machine , it apparently uses 20 KW at it's maximum usage, although looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welding_power_supply as for it's manual toolsets, it would probably use a small engine like the bionic claws, so 25 J. |
- darkness radius 2->9 (was 15 a while ago) - fixed player::sees with uniform values (possibly leftover from CleverRaven#34456) - bio_targeting allows to bypass darkness
Summary
SUMMARY: Balance "Balance bionic power use for realistic values"Purpose of change
We have realistic units and lower bionic power now.
Describe the solution
1W = 1J/1s
2W for "databanks": real SSD is 2W or less
2W for internal processors: ARM processors and smartphones use around 2W or less (https://www.anandtech.com/show/13686/snapdragon-855-power-consumption-but)
"stimulator system has been surgically implanted alongside your adrenal glands" should not need much
motion detector in real: 0.5 - 1W
just some engine for extending and hiding the blade
just some engine for extending and hiding the gun
I'm guessing 10W filter (micro pump + microchip). It takes less than a minute for blood to circulate the body, so 10x60 single use
"The current world's largest Tesla coil is a 130,000-watt": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil
small engine for extending and hiding the claws
typical fridge uses 100W when active, internally 100W should also be enough for heating, and we don't always need to cool or heat
"This high-power system uses a set of cameras and LEDs to make you blend into your background" this should not work with too much armor/clothing but should not drain much power otherwise. For now I'm changing this to 30000W (same proportion with night generator as before) for balance reasons (it's superior).
"Bionic processors and databanks (...) are surgically integrated into your nervous system."
2W for databank, 2W for processor. I'm going for 5 total sets, each limb + central.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1549/2: "EMP effects upon IC-based devices" "Tests with EMP simulators have shown that a very short pulse of about 10-7 Joule is sufficient to damage a microwave semiconductor diode, and roughly .05 J will damage an audio transistor, whereas 1 J would be required for vacuum tube damage" "A few watts to a few hundred watts of power are sufficient to destroy most ICs, when delivered in a few nanoseconds (e.g. 10-7 J /10-8 sec = 10 W)." I'm going with 50 000W since we don't fry ICs directly but through armor/shielding of turrets and robots.
real driers use up to 1000W, they make 60L per day, that's 2,5L/h. Using bionic in game can give 0,5L. That's 12min of use. 1000x60x12. That's 720kJ, 720 old units, but only 3/4 of heavy battery. Could be made into constant use with small water container we can drink or siphon from.
If going for realism this should give power not use it. Setting 5W for standby use.
few kW leds + few kW speakers should do the trick
typycil led flashlight
small ground-penetrating radar like this should only use 50W+
"Powerful heatsinks and supermaterials" - if heat is dissipated through that then 1kW should be more than enough
https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-calculate-the-electric-power-required-to-lift-100-kg-of-material: 1kW is enough to lift 100kg per 1m per 1s. 20 str is 200kg lift in game. Efficiency 20%.
3-5W real
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/SEQ-3_Laser_Weapon_System: going for "(30 kW) to fry sensors, burn out motors, and detonate explosive materials"
how to calculate power to fire? this should probably use fuel
micro motors working for few seconds
https://www.quora.com/How-much-electricity-does-a-powerful-electromagnet-consume: "8.5kW to 15 kW" for scrap magnet
based on real SSD drives( 2W on load, 0.5 on idle), plus some extra microcontroller
1W use, lets say we need 10s for it to work
this works by destructive interference. So we need same light wave as source but shifted. Same wave = same power needed. We need this to be powerful enough to block the sun. https://ag.tennessee.edu/solar/Pages/What%20Is%20Solar%20Energy/Sun%27s%20Energy.aspx Sun's power is 1000W per square meter. It blocks in 15 tile radius, that's 29x29 square, 841 m2, way too much. I'm changing this to 3x3 square. Should be changed to dynamic range or dynamic power use.
Tesla / 10. It's same as before.
it's standby power drain
no idea, so let's keep the old ratio compared to blood filters
10W for strong signal, probably too much
let's assume it's a micro computer connected to your brain or eyes
"Your nervous system has been augmented with bionic processors", again assuming 5 processors - each limb + central/head
typical garden water pump uses around 100W, how fast can you pump water from bodies, 20kW for balance. Should be changed to take time.
Describe alternatives you've considered
Just playing the game.
Additional context
Bionic UI doesn't show values other than kJ. We need to show lower values.