extending wheelchair access quest more often used tags #1081
Conversation
|
I have no idea how to distinguish pitch and playground that is wheelchair accessible and inaccessible. |
|
@matkoniecz easy: if you cannot distinguish them don't solve this quest. Like for all quests :) |
| @@ -26,7 +26,12 @@ | |||
| String[] leisures = { | |||
| "golf_course", "water_park", "miniature_golf", "dance", | |||
| "bowling_alley", "horse_riding", "sports_centre", "fitness_centre", | |||
| "amusement_arcade", "adult_gaming_centre", "tanning_salon" }; | |||
| "amusement_arcade", "adult_gaming_centre", "tanning_salon", | |||
| "playground", "stadium", "recreation_ground", "sauna", | |||
There was a problem hiding this comment.
leisure=playground would be spam as most are wheelchair=no
violate "Not an overwhelming percentage of elements have the same answer" requirement
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Well, I guess we're using different approaches on this tag on this. I think a playground is working fine for a wheelchair user if the entry is stepless, the width and smoothness of the paths are usable by a wheelchair user. That certain objects like slides are not usable by a wheelchair user (without help) is a completely different story.
But if there are no steps, reaching a playground, the ways are not too steep and bumpy, a wheelchair user can access the playground.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
"I think a playground is working fine for a wheelchair user if" - for start - is it documented somewhere on wiki?
There was a problem hiding this comment.
I tag only =yes when there is a special thing for wheelchairs there.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
@matkoniecz a combination of tags doesn't need to be documented somewhere to be used and make sense.
The question in playgrounds is really if the paths are passable by a wheelchair etc.
@HolgerJeromin this sounds pretty excluding.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
"The question in playgrounds is really if the paths are passable by a wheelchair etc." And I would rather expect that playground attractions are usable by somebody on a wheelchair.
Documentation is not necessary only for obvious things and in project as diverse as OSM nothing is obvious for everybody.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
@HolgerJeromin this sounds pretty excluding.
How do you find such special stuff (when you need it) when everyone tags playgrounds access only?
Map the footways in high detail (and add wheelchair=yes) if you like.
But the sand pit itself is no fun with a wheelchair.
| "place_of_worship", "townhall"}; | ||
| "place_of_worship", "townhall", "school", "kindergarten", | ||
| "shelter", "hospital", "police", "community_centre", | ||
| "social_facility", "public_building", "university", "college", |
There was a problem hiding this comment.
public_building is deprecated
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Thanks, I'll remove this, if all other points in question are solved.
| @@ -36,13 +41,25 @@ | |||
| "courthouse", "embassy", "car_wash", "car_rental", | |||
| "marketplace", "fuel", "driving_school", "dentist", | |||
| "doctors", "clinic", "pharmacy", "veterinary", | |||
| "place_of_worship", "townhall"}; | |||
| "place_of_worship", "townhall", "school", "kindergarten", | |||
There was a problem hiding this comment.
school and kindergarten is very hard to solve. You have to walk into and search for (quite hidden?) wheelchair toilets and elevators? IMO this is a no go.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Well, if you have no time to go inside a building, just don't solve this quest. Your points also apply fully to "courthouse" or "embassy", which we already support. So what do you think is a blocking difference between those and a school or a kindergarten?
There was a problem hiding this comment.
At least in my experience access to courthouse is not restricted like access into kindergarten is.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
@matkoniecz you can walk to any kindergarden, open the door and ask the staff if they have a toilet for wheelchair kids. What's the problem with that instead of going into a shop and ask the same thing?
| @@ -36,13 +41,25 @@ | |||
| "courthouse", "embassy", "car_wash", "car_rental", | |||
| "marketplace", "fuel", "driving_school", "dentist", | |||
| "doctors", "clinic", "pharmacy", "veterinary", | |||
| "place_of_worship", "townhall"}; | |||
| "place_of_worship", "townhall", "school", "kindergarten", | |||
| "shelter", "hospital", "police", "community_centre", | |||
There was a problem hiding this comment.
hospital is a spam candidate, too
There was a problem hiding this comment.
The goal of this tag is explicit tagging by a person who is familiar with this topic and did a survey. Sure, most hospitals, clinic, doctors and pharmacies are accessible by wheelchair users. But, where do you see the differences between hospital and clinic?
| "shelter", "hospital", "police", "community_centre", | ||
| "social_facility", "public_building", "university", "college", | ||
| "theatre", "arts_centre", "bbq", "nursing_home", | ||
| "ferry_terminal", "childcare", "shower", "prison", "studio", |
There was a problem hiding this comment.
surveying prison seems interesting :-) Not.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
If you tag a prison with a wheelchair key, I would suspect, that this doesn't apply to inmate access but for access for visitors, which should be a valid use-case. Most modernized prisons are accessible for wheelchair users, but this would give a pretty mixed result for Germany.
| "casino", "internet_cafe", "public_bookcase", "brothel", | ||
| "dojo", "gambling", "payment_terminal", "events_venue", | ||
| "public_bath", "training", "social_centre", "animal_breeding", | ||
| "animal_shelter", "retirement_home", "monastery", "sauna", |
There was a problem hiding this comment.
retirement_home would be a spam candidate, too.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Thanks, I'll remove this like public_building.
| }; | ||
| "zoo", "aquarium", "theme_park", "gallery", "museum", "hotel", | ||
| "guest_house", "hostel", "motel", "viewpoint", "attraction", | ||
| "chalet", "apartment", "resort" }; |
There was a problem hiding this comment.
hard to compare, as you reformated the value. I am undecided with attraction, but looks good otherwise
There was a problem hiding this comment.
apartment is unlikely to be easily surveyable
There was a problem hiding this comment.
@HolgerJeromin yeah, sorry for this. But I tried to give those array the same width as the others before.
@matkoniecz yes, some of them may sometimes be a bit harder, but this really depends on the facility itself and cannot be applied to all apartments. Keep in mind, that those have probably a web page or information flyers or staff you could ask, without renting them.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Keep in mind, that those have probably a web page or information flyers or staff you could ask, without renting them.
this kind of Survey is not the way this app should work.
StreetComplete is supposed to have quests answerable using common sense. Maybe it is possible to have a special quest with such question that it would be solvable by a typical person? |
I fear you approached this from the wrong edge, @matkoniecz and @HolgerJeromin expressed. You must look at it from the surveyors point of view. |
|
I do not intend to comment and discuss on about every second tag you added (because that's the amount that is problematic). Please take a thorough look at each item you added yourself and evaluate first if it isn't perhaps a little bit too much. Remember, these quests should be easily and quickly answerable. |
|
So, my conclusion to this discussion here is, I dislike this attitude. Leisure's is a fine example how daily exclusion to persons with disabilities happen. I would like to see more explicit tagging to those kinds of map features, to give everybody the ability to check, if it would be an issue to go to a place to have fun or if it's just a hassle. Since @matkoniecz already decided, that he want's to close this, because including people with disabilities to certain types of places and disabilities makes "no sense". Thanks for nothing guys. |
Note that I am not a person who decides about anything on this repository, @westnordost has sole power to decide about everything. I can only propose something. |
|
You made very clear, what places you think disabled people should stay out. I'm out of this discussion and this project. Have fun all together. |
You are misinterpreting comments on this PR. For example
is claiming that tourism=apartment is hard to survey - as, unlike in hotels it is not open to general public and you need to rent it (or express wish to rent it) to enter. In no way this means/claims/suggests that all rentable apartments are places that "disabled people should stay out." Similarly, "hospital is a spam candidate, too" claims that nearly all hospitals will be wheelchair=yes not that it is a place that "disabled people should stay out." I am not sure why you decided to interpreted it in this way. |
|
Indeed I think we had a misunderstanding here. In case @RubenKelevra does not get this mention I've reached out on Twitter. Please read @matkoniecz's comment. Nobody wants to be offensive here and these places are totally fine for anybody. That does not mean, however, that it is easy for anyone to find out whether they are actually accessible. You can re-read these requirements here. They are completely quest-agnostic and would also apply if we had a "Can flowers be planted here?" quest. |
|
So, just again. I've searched thru actually used tags to compile this list. Adding a wheelchair tag to all of them actually do make sense. I compiling a list of the percentages of combinations, so wheelchair tags on playgrounds for example are pretty common, if you take shop=* as a baseline how common should be defined. But looking thru more than two dozens of new tags and deciding that one two "make sense" to you, doesn't feel to me like a technical discussion anymore. It clearly shows, that you don't think this information is helpful for people if it's tagged on more stuff and that we should design a quest just for surveyors which are not familiar with this topic. So if you have to idea how to distinguish a pitch and a playground between wheelchair=yes/no, this doesn't mean that such an tag is a bad idea nor that a quest which pops up in SC adding this information is a bad idea. It means you're not familiar with this topic and should just go ahead and disable this quest. |
Can you elaborate on how you did that a bit more? In the PR description you said something about 500 times. Well… 500 times can be much or nothing, depending on how common the tag at all is. But well… these are the technical things. E.g. taking the playground thing. When I imagine some playgrounds nearby I would have no idea what to actually tag there… First there is sand, which could be hard for wheelchair users, secondly if we ignore the sand and consider they may stay on ways nearby… that easily get's complicated.
I am very sorry, but actually it is. E.g. users must not be experts (a rule of SC), so they may not be wheelchair users.
It is what we need to do. Each tag asked by SC must satisfy the requirements. They are hand-picked deliberately, and not only for this quest (have a look at other PRs, you'll see the same). The reason is just each quest that pops up should be answerable in an easy way and users should – if possible – always be able to answer it. And that is just not satisfied with prisons e.g.
I think it should be clear that SC/OSM contributors would love to tag it all and if the information is there, it would be awesome and totally useful. But SC has a big usability goal – at some point, you just have to limit the amount of quests you ask to the user.
Actually you are right with that. We cannot design a quest, which only a small subset of SC users can solve. Again I quote the guides:
So our proposed kosher/halal quests, users also do not have to have any knowledge what kosher/halal actually is. (The app should make that clear.) Same goes for any other quest: If we had a banking quest, it would have to be solvable by everyone, not just by bankers. If we had a fish quest, it would need to be solvable not only by fisherman. And FYI: Many people already complained about that – me, too –, but I also realized at some point that it is the best for the app. And that is a totally unpolitical decision. It's just about usability of the app. And if you find some prisons or so you want to tag, you can do so with other apps, just many SC users would not be able to answer them and if that happens too often, they abandon the app altogether, because "it constantly asks questions, I have no idea to answer". Then, you have less OSM mappers actually helping to contribute data – and then, you have lost more than you've gained. Then the wheelchair quest would not be used anyway, and less users would contribute data. That's not what we want, is it? I hope this made it clear why it is necessary to go though each tag, to examine each quest in detail and why such strict quest requirements are needed. SC would not be what it is and would not have all the users it has, if we did not follow these requirements. I hope you understand that and maybe decide to continue helping SC. Maybe this PR will not be successful, but that's the live of contributors. Remember that maybe at least parts of this PR may be taken into SC actually, it was not declined finally. But even if it should be, please do not be disappointed. |
|
See for example the street lighting quest. |
I've dug a bit into taginfo and searched for additionally tags which are not yet covered by the wheelchair access tag. I've added those which sounded reasonable and are used more than 500 times.