Code of conduct

[tanhauhau]

According to the https://opensource.guide/, Svelte should get a Code of Conduct?

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[pngwn]

There has been some discussion about this previously and is something I'm currently looking into. It isn't quite as straightforward as simply adopting a CoC but it is a priority. I'll have more on this soon but thank you for opening this issue!

[nodefish]

I think it is a politically driven idea disguised as inclusivity that preys on people's genuine good intentions.

[Dragas]

Facilitate a healthy community and constructive community behavior

Is it healthy and constructive when CoC is ALWAYS defined as an ambiguous rule mess which is used to remove anyone who don't agree with trigger-happy non-contributing "members" of community because those people "don't comply" with CoC? Every project that has it adopted went down the shitter quite quickly.

[pngwn]

Ah yes, lets all take a moment to remember all of the dead projects such as Linux, .NET Foundation, Django, Swift, curl, Discourse, Yarn, React, Vue.js, Gatsby.

This list is but a fragment—a mere slice—of the many projects destroyed by adoption of a code of conduct. Long may they be remembered.

[nodefish]

I don't think it destroys projects, but it cultivates a dominant and often domineering monoculture. Those projects aren't dead, but a not-insignificant number of frankly frivolous scandals have occurred in several of them, and it sure did suck for many of the affected people.

It is hubris to think that we are here to engineer society, or are even able to do it adequately, no matter the virtuous language used to describe the sociopolitical mandate. Let's stick to software.

RE: Linux:

https://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/donate/

100% of donations received go towards funding diversity programs.

Yeah there's totally not a political agenda. /s

[pngwn]

So I guess I have to respond to this properly.

Firstly, this isn't a point of discussion: there is going to be a Code of Conduct of some description.

Secondly, OSS is about far more than just software it is also about community. I can't speak for other maintainers but I feel a great deal of responsibility to make sure that people in the Svelte community feel both welcome and safe, that might not matter to you but it matters to me. This also stretches further than just the current community, we want people to feel like they are welcome here and that we take issues within the community seriously. A CoC and suitable enforcement policy signal both of those things, encouraging a variety of different people to join the community.

[nodefish]

both welcome and safe, that might not matter to you but it matters to me

This implies a false premise of danger, unless we adopt a ruleset that, ironically, contrary to programming principles, were it code would be considered rife with exploits and undefined behavior.

You've created the problem wholesale and out of thin air, and now are conveniently in the business of selling the solution. Surprise: the solution is aligned with your political agenda. Who could've seen that coming?

In all truth, nobody has been unsafe, nobody has been targeted, nobody has been excluded. Everything is actually great (inb4 you accuse me of "heteronormative bias" as the playbook tends to go).

People will start to be be excluded soon though, once you start enforcing the abovementioned ruleset. But I guess it's acceptable to you if it's the right sort of people, which is exactly what happened in several projects that adopted the CoC.

People wonder why humanity always repeats the same mistakes. I am confident that the perceptive reader of this thread will be able to suss it out and note your mistake.

[pngwn]

We already have the exact rules we are going to enforce, would like them written down so you can read them or shall we keep them unwritten so you can just guess?

The only difference anyone will notice is that instead of guessing what is acceptable, you can just go an read it.

inb4 you accuse me of "heteronormative bias" as the playbook tends to go

Just leaving this here for posterity.

[Dragas]

But do people need to guess at all...? Even before days of coc, everything was fine and nobody cared about who was contributing and how. What has changed? Why do you feel the non-existent danger? What happened to expecting everyone to be publicly decent and instead resorting to a meme text file to enforce who are your friends and who are not?

[nodefish]

We already have the exact rules we are going to enforce, would like them written down so you can read them or shall we keep them unwritten so you can just guess?

I'm just going by the historical record of various dramas and scandals that have been directly caused by the adoption of CoC in other projects. Injustice has occurred because of it, where there was literally none before.

I would contend that it is readily apparent to the average not-politically-biased participant that software like Svelte is not tasked with participating in reinforcing people's identity concerns, as is the mandate of identity politics, so I do believe posterity will favor my argument rather than yours as mine is based on general principles rather than the ideology of a contemporary political faction.

However, thank you nonetheless for taking this discussion seriously.

[tivac]

What happened to expecting everyone to be publicly decent and instead resorting to a meme text file to enforce who are your friends and who are not?

People aren't always publicly (or privately) decent, so having a CoC means there's established guidelines for how to deal with people who are shitty.

[btakita]

I identify as politically conservative & pro-liberty. The general tech culture has been uncomfortable for me & I have lost friends due to my personal convictions & beliefs based on my experiences & research. I don't think I'm a "shitty" person though I'm sure some would think that I am.

There's an old adage that nothing imperils friendships more than politics & religion. Such discussions often challenge worldviews. A challenge that we currently face is that terminology is often redefined to implicitly endorse political agendas. I'm not going to fault anybody for stepping on toes in this regard, because most of the time, it's probably due to normative behavior or a genuine desire to promote "good", whatever that may mean to somebody. For example, the idea of "inclusiveness" often means something different to a progressive or a conservative.

There is an implicit Code of Conduct that is created by the people in the group. Explicitly writing the Code of Conduct is a good opportunity to think through the parameters of healthy & productive community discourse. Any system of bylaws can be gamed & abused for counter-productive purposes. OTOH, a CoC can create the foundation for it's members to engage in respectful discourse.

I don't think "inclusiveness" should be a priority because it is ultimately a contradiction. "Inclusiveness" can lead to unfairly labeling "intolerant" boogeymen to be excluded (thus violating inclusiveness). If we want to maximize inclusiveness, this should mean all viewpoints are encouraged to participate. If some viewpoints are maligned as not being "inclusive", the party making the accusation should also be held into account for possibly not being "inclusive" & inciting group antagonism.

I personally am here to collaborate on great software & technical solutions and think that we should be all be respected as individuals. I do think respectful discourse should be encouraged.

There is a danger with tribalism and it may be inevitable due to the size of the community. The best we can do is to reduce the occurrences of escalating grievances and encourage respect & reciprocity. This may involve discouraging politically sensitive topics, as politics has a way of resulting in impassioned debate.

I would prefer if we could focus on behavior that respects each other's opinions, property, time, etc. We can have discussions & community, but let's keep it respectful. We can disagree but that does not mean we should demonize each other. If there's a disagreement, at some point, the back & forth of retaliation should stop.

[simeydotme]

Kind of weird that there's division over this, in my opinion 😕

Anywho, my 2p;

It seems everyone so far has argued unanimously in favour of allowing people to behave decently, with good intentions and respectfully to one-another (phew) ... so that's great! And I can't wait to see a boundary (CoC) in place so that that decency and respect are upheld, and so that good intentions result in a level of fairness, decency & respect agreed upon by the people most passionate about this project and ecosystem! 👏 Thanks for all the hard work, people!

[LeszekNie]

Civilised people do not need such rules being write down. We all know it all from our parents. It is not needed and ultimately rude to constantly reminding such basic rules of civility.

[stale]

This issue has been automatically marked as stale because it has not had recent activity. It will be closed if no further activity occurs. Thank you for your contributions.

[dummdidumm]

Not this one, stale bot

[jonathanstanley]

@pngwn you wrote in the CoC:

We pledge to act and interact in ways that contribute to an open, welcoming, diverse, inclusive, and healthy community.

Your actual conduct:

Ah yes, lets all take a moment to remember all of the dead projects such as Linux, .NET Foundation, Django, Swift, curl, Discourse, Yarn, React, Vue.js, Gatsby.

This list is but a fragment—a mere slice—of the many projects destroyed by adoption of a code of conduct. Long may they be remembered.

Your comment appears condescending, sarcastic, and dismissive. Certainly not welcoming, inclusive, or contributing to a healthy community. Contrast to "I respectfully disagree. Here are some reasons why...". Authors/members have a special responsibility to uphold the rules and set a good example. Unless you are planning to enforce the rules on yourself... it's extremely confusing and rules for thee, but not for me

Per your rules, the minimum response :

explanation of why the behavior was inappropriate. A public apology may be requested.

[pngwn]

The maintainers do not enforce the CoC. If you feel someone has behaved in a way that is inconsistent with the CoC there are instructions on how to report those concerns on the CoC itself.

However, the CoC has only been implemented for a short period of time.