What type of Stile/Gate/Gap is here?

[peternewman]

General

Affected tag(s) to be modified/added: stile
Question asked: What type of Stile/Gate/Gap is here?

Checklist

Checklist for quest suggestions (see guidelines):

• 🚧 To be added tag is established and has a useful purpose
• 🤔 Any answer the user can give must have an equivalent tagging (Quest should not reappear to other users when solved by one)
• 🐿️ Easily answerable by everyone from the outside but a survey is necessary
• 💤 Not an overwhelming percentage of quests have the same answer (No spam)
• 🕓 Applies to a reasonable number of map data (Worth the effort)

Ideas for implementation

Element selection:
Anywhere where a highway=path/footway intersects/crosses a barrier=wall/fence/hedge/guard_rail

For example this node (and the one above it):
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7287751590

Metadata needed:
None

Proposed UI:
It can probably just chuck you into the existing stile quest, especially when gaps are added as mentioned in #3188 (comment)

[matkoniecz]

It can appear also in city. Hopfefully number of false positives where existing mapping is wrong is low...

Not sure what would be the best but maybe separate quest reusing assets would be better to allow disabling/enabling this one separately.

And would allow a more precise title(s).

intersects/crosses

Only where it intersects. Note not-fully-mapped bridges and tunnels.

[peternewman]

It can appear also in city.

Good point, I don't think there should be other answers there.

Hopfefully number of false positives where existing mapping is wrong is low...

How do you mean? Where they don't cross?

Not sure what would be the best but maybe separate quest reusing assets would be better to allow disabling/enabling this one separately.

Yeah fair point, is there some cleverer way we can use identical code but just two different sets of node queries?

And would allow a more precise title(s).

I think you can do that already can't you, like the tram/bus quests?

intersects/crosses

Only where it intersects. Note not-fully-mapped bridges and tunnels.

Having looked, the top of my two example nodes just crosses and doesn't intersect. Curiously iD doesn't flag that as a warning...

[matkoniecz]

How do you mean? Where they don't cross?

For example where there is a hedge, very large gap (50m? 20m?) with footway inside and then another hedge. With hedge mapped as one line intersecting with footway.

I think you can do that already can't you, like the tram/bus quests?

Yes, but everything gets far more complex. Maybe I will start from implementing a separate quest and then refactor and merge it.

But given that query, title and rate of potential issues I think that separate quest is fine.

Someone may wish to disable as their area is unlucky to have many false positives, finding quest with title not shown in quest list would be weird and so on.

[peternewman]

How do you mean? Where they don't cross?

For example where there is a hedge, very large gap (50m? 20m?) with footway inside and then another hedge. With hedge mapped as one line intersecting with footway.

Ah I see, which would hopefully generate a note and have the mapping corrected.

Yes, but everything gets far more complex.

Yeah that makes sense.

Someone may wish to disable as their area is unlucky to have many false positives, finding quest with title not shown in quest list would be weird and so on.

Although I think you have to have the tram and bus quests combined.

[matkoniecz]

One more consideration:

should it be asked when barrier terminates on intersection? Or is touching but not crossing?

This kind of filter is implemented already for crossing quest, not sure is it worth using. Maybe just take all intersections? This cases should be rare and result in notes.

Although I think you have to have the tram and bus quests combined.

And I quite dislike it, I got confused at least once - despite that I have written parts of it

[matkoniecz]

Question asked: What type of Stile/Gate/Gap is here?

I would go for

What is present on this intersection of path/footway with a barrier?

[peternewman]

should it be asked when barrier terminates on intersection? Or is touching but not crossing?

This kind of filter is implemented already for crossing quest, not sure is it worth using. Maybe just take all intersections? This cases should be rare and result in notes.

I was sort of assuming we'd just take it (although I agree it should be rare/is likely to be some incorrect/incomplete mapping), but if someone has developed the logic I don't see why we can't just steal it.

Question asked: What type of Stile/Gate/Gap is here?

I would go for

What is present on this intersection of path/footway with a barrier?

With path/footway being dynamic substitution of the relevant term?

I think this is slightly more grammatically correct:
"What is present at the intersection of this path/footway with the barrier?"

[matkoniecz]

With path/footway being dynamic substitution of the relevant term?

likely not - question objects will be nodes on intersection and topology is (I think) lost when title is shown, so it cannot be set.

And anyway highway=path surface=paving_stones or highway=footway surface=gravel are valid taggings.

[10992-osm]

It can appear also in city. Hopfefully number of false positives where existing mapping is wrong is low...

Not sure what would be the best but maybe separate quest reusing assets would be better to allow disabling/enabling this one separately.

And would allow a more precise title(s).

intersects/crosses

Only where it intersects. Note not-fully-mapped bridges and tunnels.

Is this because it's only technically possible to check for intersection, or just because it's more appropriate for this quest?

[matkoniecz]

Is this because it's only technically possible to check for intersection, or just because it's more appropriate for this quest?

Primarily to avoid asking confusing questions about broken data and possibly breaking it even more.

[peternewman]

With path/footway being dynamic substitution of the relevant term?

likely not - question objects will be nodes on intersection and topology is (I think) lost when title is shown, so it cannot be set.

Ah, in which case is it better if we come up with a more generic term, in case we add other similar matches?:
way
route
path

[matkoniecz]

way/route is a bit too generic - as it includes also roads

path - would it inclde in English also paved footways?

[10992-osm]

way/route is a bit too generic - as it includes also roads

path - would it inclde in English also paved footways?

Do you mean the ones that run alongside roads for cars (a.k.a. pavements, or sidewalks in en-US)?

If you do, I imagine most people would understand it, but I'm not sure how many would actually say it in that case.

[matkoniecz]

Do you mean the ones that run alongside roads for cars (a.k.a. pavements, or sidewalks in en-US)?

This ones are unlikely to encounter barriers, so I was thinking rather about ones going without road along them.

Like this paved park footway - is user going to be confused and create note when asked about it?:

In Polish translation I will use "ścieżka/chodnik" as both very strogly indicate surface ("ścieżka", Polish for path strongly indicates surface=unpaved and 'chodnik' - strongly indicates surface=paved). I remember similar claims for path/footway in English.

https://www.google.pl/maps/@50.0768316,19.9366303,3a,32.4y,111.89h,87.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smdgM_yXA3o__cTvFWKSE6g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[peternewman]

In Polish translation I will use "ścieżka/chodnik" as both very strogly indicate surface ("ścieżka", Polish for path strongly indicates surface=unpaved and 'chodnik' - strongly indicates surface=paved). I remember similar claims for path/footway in English.

Not according to the dictionary:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/path

I'd probably think it's a bit more at the muddy end, but I can't immediately think of one specifically for paved routes. @smichel17 @andrewharvey

[10992-osm]

In everyday English (at least where I'm from: England), no-one uses the word footway. If it is ever used, it will be referring to the path alongside the road which is normally called the pavement (sidewalk in OSM), as opposed to the carriageway.

A path can have any sort of surface, I think. At some point, you might end up calling it a track (particularly if it is paved and/or wider (for vehicles) and/or also for cycles). In my experience highway=track does not entirely match up with what I call a track in day-to-day life. The photo you put above, @matkoniecz, is something that I personally would call a path.

Like @peternewman, I also can't think of a word for paved paths.

[peternewman]

At some point, you might end up calling it a track (particularly if it is paved and/or wider (for vehicles) and/or also for cycles). In my experience highway=track does not entirely match up with what I call a track in day-to-day life.

Funnily enough, I'd say a track is something wider, but unpaved, so you might send a 4x4 through a track in the woods. I'd probably call it a road if it's well paved (but maybe concrete slabs/lanes would be a farm track).

[smichel17]

Preface: In common English, I think all of these words are ambiguous enough that there are no individual combinations egregious enough that I would be forced to ask for clarification. We're mostly talking about what I would assume if someone were not fully explicit.

(Also, this got way longer than I intended, somehow. 🤷 )

In everyday English (at least where I'm from: England), no-one uses the word footway

+1 from the northeast United States.

the path alongside the road which is normally called the pavement (sidewalk in OSM)

Also sidewalk in American English. Pavement should be reserved for en-GB translations. Before discussions on this tracker, I'd never heard it used to mean sidewalk, and I was genuinely confused (could not figure out the meaning) the first time I heard it.
(edit: I mean it's problematic in the app— here it's fine, since the consequence is just some confusion, not mistagging)

In America, pavement refers to the paved surface of the road (usually asphalt, although maybe that's just because most roads are asphalt here). I imagine this impression comes from pavement ends road signs (meaning the road becomes unpaved up ahead); these also ensure that most people and all drivers will know the word.

I would still understand you if you used it to refer to the surface of a sidewalk. However, I would assume you were talking about the road surface if you didn't specify it explicitly with "sidewalk pavement" (this is what confused me the first time).

A path can have any sort of surface, I think.

Both paved and unpaved paths are common.

• I would assume the surface of a foot path (or footpath) based on the context. If it's in a park, I'd assume dirt. If it's in a city center, I'd assume pavement.
• I would assume a bike path (always two words) is asphalt (unless there's a bridge or something).
• I would assume a hiking path is dirt. Although, in most cases I would call it a trail instead.

Track

I cannot speak definitively about this word since I have seen it too much in SC. I think it is fairly uncommon, and I would mostly expect to hear tracks referred to as some kind of road instead (e.g. "logging road"), but I need to ask others to confirm.

[10992-osm]

On the subject of footways, as I mentioned, it will be referring to pavements (sidewalks). One place you see this is on road signs, such as this one warning drivers of the possible presence of pedestrians in the road:

[matkoniecz]

Anywhere where a highway=path/footway intersects/crosses a barrier=wall/fence/hedge/guard_rail

I think that I will extend it to highway~path|footway|steps|cycleway intersecting barrier~wall|fence|hedge|guard_rail|retaining_wall|city_wall and separate quest where road intersects one of this barriers.

(why separate quest for roads? Because it is typical to have gate for road and separately mapped path without a barrier along it)

[matkoniecz]

Wow, I expected it to be a niche quest with thousands question generated worldwide. But still worth it due to high importance.

But https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1daL reveals many more cases than I expected.

Including some tricky ones like https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/206351942 https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/692929794 (a tunnel entrance) that right now would qualify. I guess that excluding nodes that are touched by tunnel and tunnel != no will be needed.

[Helium314]

Same case with bridges, see https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/78135912 or https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/28101153.
Then it might need to look at level/layer, see https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5759605902 where the road has level=-1 and the barrier has layer=1.

[matkoniecz]

Thanks! I just excluded all bridges, too many false positives here.