continuation: rms-open-letter denial of discussion #175
Comments
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To be fair, we kinda have that too #24 |
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That's different from locking issues though. |
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#24 has been closed but still allows people to comment on it |
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https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/issues/924 - also closed and locked without any reason. |
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I support discussion. Not sure why is labeled a transphobe tbh. I get he said some bad things to someone who is trans, but he said those things to the person not the gender. It really had nothing to do with what gender they thought they were. |
It wasn't anything he said or did to any specific person. It's his position on "they/them" pronouns, which he rejects for grammatical reasons and proposes a singular alternative. Those creeps even have the audacity to call him ablest, can you believe that? |
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If somebody feels that he is impacted by RMS, he could freely fork the GPL, dont use GPL software, etc. But not to offend RMS. Because there are plenty of people out there, who disagree with this mob. RMS is a rigorous leader of FSF. And his private opinion about whatever doesnt matter, since it doesnt impact the FSF movement. |
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They have a point, in that RMS does not behave as a leader of a serious organisation should. The are right in that RMS can become a liability. However, politicising, boycotting, and using your leverage to oust one person because you disagree with their views is ... not a good precedent. He has the right to make amends at least. What I find baffling is the complete and utter lack of dialogue, and the unfair assumption that if you find his ideas problematic, that you would have no problem with using all possible leverage to get rid of him. Actions speak louder than words. He has made people uncomfortable, yes. He has spoken out against fair accusations, also yes. He has founded the movement that gave most of those people a job. The G in GTK is the same G as in GIMP, which is the same as in GNU. All of those G's are a direct consequence of his æsthetic choices. The projects that these people are maintaining are possible only thanks to his contributions. I don't say that this means that everyone should be kissing RMS's feet, but at least some consideration should be given to the Titanic amount of work that this person has contributed. The tone should be different. In particular I find it offensive, that the issue raising the problem of targeting him specifically , and not his misbehaviour is deleted, and all such issues are closed, because it's inconcenient to adjust the phrasing after so many people have signed. The "We don't want people like RMS" is still in their letter. The problem is the methods. This idiotic, blind and deaf politically-charged protest should stop. |
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Classic leftist fascist tribalism. Good for us those do a great job of collecting their names, some of them i expected to be smarter but well, thats life lets be realistic. |
And let's face it, this is what makes free software movement humane. |
RMS exibits a lot of weird behavior from eating his toe cheese up to dancing weirdly with a man in a gnu costume, a lot of which I would attribute to his autism |
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Some of these issues are now deleted. I.e. I can't even read what was on there. This is part of a concerted effort to wipe any evidence of actual factual errors. |
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I am working on providing archive links
https://twitter.com/torproject/status/1374754834050654212
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Oh. Fair. Didn't expect them to shut me up because of a single question though. |
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Well, tor is now compromised.
Stallman being cancelled is a psyop, same reason terry davis
((((((((jumped))))))) in front of a train. They could not remove stallman
in this method because he was too big, so they killed his career.
Tor confirmed compromised.
…On Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 10:35 AM Ivanq ***@***.***> wrote:
The Tor Project is joining calls for Richard M. Stallman to be removed
from board, staff, volunteer, and other leadership positions in the FOSS
community, including the Free Software Foundation and the GNU Project. Sign
the open letter:
Oh. Fair. Didn't expect them to shut me up because of a single question
though.
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Adding my 2 cents. "this content" link leads to my PR rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io#791 which lead @mollydb to add similar commit rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io@8e52fd9 Also, my suggestion, which was marked as off-topic, became irrelevant after @mollydb updated appendix. |
I don't find this surprising or controversial. I delete some posts from this repo too, I don't have time for this. |
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I wouldn't say the deletion or locking of issues is inherently a problem but rather the unwillingness to let discussion happen |
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Communities of lynch mobs who censor people are full of censorship, what a shocker! |
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We have laws and we have due process. RMS, being back on the board means that he signs a legally binding contract, that includes several terms on conduct. If this includes him acting like a civilised human being, and him not liking it, he is in his right not to return. If he does agree, then you can only legitimately make him step down if he violates said contract. This call for his resignation is illegitimate, because if the people who signed the petition were authorised to decide on this matter, their votes would be counted. Either they aren’t authorised, or majority thinks that RMS is fit to lead. So this is basically equivalent to a coup. You gather round and make a noise, because you didn’t win the vote. Except a lot of these people know that mob lynching and such coups are wrong, because very recently they were condemning the exact same action and calling for “voices to be amplified”. My problem here, is that a lot of the deleted issues are people on “their side of the fence”, trying to make the text more accurate, and more reasonable. One issue in particular, called for the letter to target the behaviour, and not the person, which would have been more in-line with the spirit of justice and clemency. Them deleting these issues is only making their case appear weaker to any reasonable person, while making it stronger (for a time) to anyone who sees the word transphobic sees a privileged white-old dude, and says guilty. This doesn’t look like an ethical organisation trying to improve its conduct, this looks like someone found some dirt on RMS, and had been eyeing his seat. This is petty. |
The whole point of aggressive "open letters" is to bypass laws and due process |
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I believe Leah Rowe, libreboot developer and someone who in the past had some beef with the FSF, said it best
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Tor as an organization was compromised at least ever since they decided to hire a cia contractor. You are ~6 years behind. https://archive.is/4FMxm @em92 Also, be aware that this repo is currently being suppressed by github out of the trending page. |
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@neilmcgovern and @mollydb even go to Debian's mailing list for this affair. I thought they works for GNOME now. |
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@shenlebantongying Regarding debian: Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor#21 |
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The most interesting issue is 2250, it contains references to violated documents. Hope they will not remove it :) |
uh huh |
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I can't save it either. Hopefully web archive is not blocking us. Oh-uh. |
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archive.is still working https://archive.is/mRPp3 We can also save a local copy by using SingleFile extension of firefox |
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Hi, I'm a time traveler, Mozilla has banned everyone who signed rms-support-letter from using their browser |
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Okay, can someone please make a bot to automatically save every new issue from that other repo? They get deleted before I can read them. |
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Sounds somewhat like EEE. |
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@System0x20 Sorry for replying in this repo but it feels a bit more secure.
Where would you recommend to send that warning then? |
@imachug as you can see the the letter is written and signed by OSI, Debian and GNOME folks (as well as a former member of the FSF board) you probably should talk about that in forums related to these foundation/organizations |
Thank you for providing these
I wouldn't call freedom of speech on this
As the issue is not locked or deleted I will not add it to the list yet but thank you for providing it
as it stands both letters have slowed down and the deletion of issues isn't done too closely to its creation so manual archiving isn't too tedious
As I see it this is true and my concern is it that the people that created this letter are not in favor of freedom and simply seek to further their own agenda
The letter is written and signed by a lot of groups some of which have members that actively disagree with the letter showing that that those groups support is not entirely one sided As it stands there is no open communication channel to the maintainers of that letter and github issues are disgarded on the regular. An issue that personally bothered me is https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/issues/401 since RMS has been accused of transphobia without any citation actually proving him to be (Stallman has a complicated view on the entire pronoun thing but is in favor of it. post) To me this does not show that the people behind this letter are interested in setting right in the world but that they want to cause trouble for nothing but their own benefit. |
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@System0x20
how about just opening a discussions page on repo? |
That's actually a good idea. We can (politely) ask a neutral organization (like Eclipse, they dont support anyone[yet?], Apache members support the letter) To provide both sides and not just you or those supporting the letter like me a place to talk. |
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In theory, I could create a chat from a throwaway account and delete its password. But no one will believe I did so, right? |
Yep thats why I suggested to ask a neutral org. Anyone can do that but people dont believe you or me |
I doubt that is possible |
Yes but you guys are heavily biased towards the guy we are heavily biased against him. Finding somewhere just slightly biased towards or against him is the best we can do if we both don't like discussing about this in somewhere acquired by Microsoft |
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I think we should wait, and see what happens. The signature collection doesn’t mean much, if the real heavy hitters pull the plug. We currently don’t have a backup, all signatures that went though the issue or the PRs may get lost if Microsoft decides to close this repo for inciting violence. The best thing that we can do, is wait, RMS is the one who can litigate, and litigation is the most reliable way to stop this. We are not at war, this is a disagreement about methods. |
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This would be deleted in a few minutes. https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/issues/2414
https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/issues/2427 There are two posts on GNOME's reddit. Some of the mods are GNOME foundation's staff, so just watch them to disappear https://www.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/mdvtg3/on_gnome_and_rms_open_letter/ |
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those last two github issues were added, thanks for providing an archive. |
continuation of https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/issues/848 (issue has since been deleted) in a place where discussion is allowed
since the people behind that repository have shown they are unwilling to have one like an adult
Here is a list of locked issues
I have no interest in discussing this further here.- neilmcgovern[1] https://xkcd.com/1357/
[2]
some improvements https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/issues/401 (archive), rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io#791 (archive) & rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io#910 (archive) have been opened to correct the letter and have been rejected with the reasoning that the letter has been signed by too many people that altering would invalidate the the signatures
Here is a list of people in charge of the open letter repository
This list does not exist to encourage harrasment, and I beg you not to go after these people, but rather mirrors my belives from this issue (archive last comment) which I am going to paraphrase again in the case it gets deleted:
It is best to make your own judgement on the letter and this just stands to document what has happened
In no way am I saying that closing, locking or deleting is a bad thing but the people above have not only proven to be that they are unwilling to have a discussion debating points of the letter but are also willingly malicious by citing points that are no longer true or outright lies and being unwilling to append a correction
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