Proposal future ownership/development of Kubeflow distributions should be outside Kubeflow #434
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This change is |
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I have a few points I want to raise:
Questions:
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I think if vendors want to continue working on official installation docs, they can do so, otherwise, they can redirect to their own page. Besides that, I think it's reasonable to have a minimal generic distribution, from this perspective,
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| ## Proposal | ||
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| Going forward all distributions of Kubeflow should be owned and maintained outside of Kubeflow. |
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All? I thought we were going to have a generic version owned by the deployment WG.
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Please review: #402 distributions of Kubeflow are out of scope for the deployments WG.
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| ### Ownership & Development | ||
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| Going forward new distributions of Kubeflow should be developed outside of the Kubeflow GitHub org. This ensures |
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My issue is if this is completely outside the org, then what's the end user experience? A new user should be able to come to kubeflow/kubeflow and install a great experience (jupyter, kale, tf/pytorch job, katib, tfserving/seldon/triton/whatever).
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The install experience will be
install pipelines
git clone [email protected]:kubeflow/manifests.git git_manifests
kustomize build ./pipelines | kubectl apply -f
kustomize build ./notebooks | kubectl apply -f
....
In other words the install experience will be exactly what it is for everywhere Kubernetes application and similar to what it is for Tekton.
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my 2-cents:
This "install the piece you want" experience will be ideal for some use-cases but, will weaken the "try-out Kubeflow" UX, which is key for adoption.
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@jlewi I am not quite sure it will be that simple, there will also be at least some cluster-level stuff which is required for all apps.
What the user chooses for the cluster-level stuff is probably going to affect the YAML for each of the sub-apps too.
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| ## Proposal | ||
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| Going forward all distributions of Kubeflow should be owned and maintained outside of Kubeflow. |
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I work with lots of customers trying to adopt Kubeflow in production. One major blocking issue is they cannot easily integrate with entire Kubeflow stack into their existing infrastructure.
- Some teams don't own underly k8s and infra team give limited permission to install entire KF stack
- Some teams have to integrate with their own data models and native Kubernetes solution is not acceptable. They end up build additional wrappers on top of Kubeflow concepts.
But I have to say, small teams really love upstream distribution and they get an out-of-box ML solution and don't have to put extra efforts on a lot of things.
At the same time, I see a few users use Kubeflow in a different way, they leverage lower level capability from training operators, pipeline API, etc and they pick up pieces they need from Kubeflow.
I think these are definitely different directions. Do we want to concentrate on ML on k8s techniques itself? Like how to run distributed training on k8s, how to orchestrate ML workflows on k8s. Or we want to build an e2e ML solution? Then community needs to put efforts on better integration between components, user friendly interfaces, etc.
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I agree that there is a lot of value in distributions. That's why I think we want to embrace a philosophy of letting a 1000 flowers bloom.
There will be no one distribution that works well or even moderately well for all or even most people. So instead of arguing over what should be in the "generic" distribution I want to encourage folks to organize around use cases, target users and develop distributions optimized for those use cases.
As an example, a distribution targeting someone wanting to kick the tires on their laptop will probably be very different from one running on a small but multi-node cluster.
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I think I agree on this part. If we see Kubernetes community, it only distribute binaries. There're tons of tools like Minikube, Kind, kops etc to help user provision kubernetes in different envs. The unclear part is even community folks organize their stacks and offer to users, how does Kubeflow community certify them? Or Kubeflow doesn't need to certify them, just say go check list for different solutions
There have been multiple efforts to create generic distributions. None of them IMO have gained the necessary contributor support necessary to warrant a KF WG. Every discussion about generic distributions ends up spiraling into debates that reflect people's various oppinions
On the contrary; I think creating an officially endorsed "generic" distribution gives signficant weight to whatever oppinions the owners of that distribution makes. In Kubeflow decision making is based on OWNERs files. So decisions about a generic distribution would not be made by the community; it would be made by the 1-3 organizations actively developing it. If you feel that strongly about a generic distribution then my suggestion would be to work with others on building a distribution that satisfies your goals; e.g. setup testing for different K8s versions. Maybe take a look at what Arrikto is doing with kfctl_k8s_istio_dex.yaml and see how you can help there. Or talk to @RFMVasconcelos about the MicroK8s install |
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I generally agree with @thesuperzapper's argument that having a "generic" distribution would have benefits.
However, to @jlewi's point:
On the contrary; I think creating an officially endorsed "generic" distribution gives signficant weight to whatever oppinions the owners of that distribution makes. In Kubeflow decision making is based on OWNERs files. So decisions about a generic distribution would not be made by the community; it would be made by the 1-3 organizations actively developing it.
giving 1-3 orgs OWNERs right to that Kubeflow endorsed distro effectively gives these vendors control over Kubeflow. I believe this is a risk in what is happening atm with kfctl (#402).
In sum:
- There seems to be clear value in KF having end-to-end platform stories, not scattered apps
- Unfortunately, if there are 1-3 orgs providing it, which is likely if there is one "generic" distribution, then these orgs control the story
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| ### Ownership & Development | ||
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| Going forward new distributions of Kubeflow should be developed outside of the Kubeflow GitHub org. This ensures |
There was a problem hiding this comment.
my 2-cents:
This "install the piece you want" experience will be ideal for some use-cases but, will weaken the "try-out Kubeflow" UX, which is key for adoption.
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+1 on moving all vendor distributions out. I still think there should be core generic distribution, else there is no reference point. Instead of calling it a distribution, it can be positioned as a sample multi-tenant architectural guidance and implementation for a particular Kubeflow release, and is not something which Kubeflow dictates or endorses. But there is still value in one developed under Kubeflow org. Vis a vis concerns over "giving 1-3 orgs OWNERs right to that Kubeflow endorsed distro effectively gives these vendors control over Kubeflow" - please contribute, earn your stripes, and join the WG as a lead. This can be one WG where the limits on the number of OWNERS can be non-existent. If your org has a track record of contributing back to Kubeflow, join the WG. |
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Does Kubeflow want to provide some conformance tests or it's totally on vendors? from a user's perspective, I hope each component itself work fine (Kubeflow WG) and glue between components work fine (vendors) |
Conformance tests are where we need to get to.
I'm hoping that conformance tests provide the reference not a generic distribution. The distinction in my mind is that conformance tests should mandate functionality & capabilities not implementation. As an example, conformance tests would require that certain KFP pipelines run that exercise functionality but are agnostic to the engine (Argo and Tekton). So we will not have a "core" distribution. Instead we will have N conformant distributions. |
About the "generic" distribution:Let's stop calling it "generic" and call it "reference" I believe we are thinking of Kubeflow too much like Kubernetes. Kubernetes is a very complex platform with effectively infinite deployment methods, whereas Kubeflow is a set of apps which run on Kubernetes and comprise a data/ml platform. Setting aside what tool you use to submit your YAML (and which Kubeflow apps you pick), there are very few deployment options for Kubeflow. If you look at the distributions in Realistically the "reference" distribution is just those YAMLs, and a basic validation that you can actually deploy them. Important note:I really doubt we will be able to enforce "conformance" tests without creating a formal governance structure in the Kubeflow ORG (which people actually buy into). I am not talking about individual apps, but rather the whole project. Right now, Kubeflow feels like it's drifting in the wind, especially as previously important vendors/people distance themselves from the open-source part of the project. I think the community needs to elect a group of people who actually have steering control of Kubeflow as a whole, so they can make decisions like this. |
This is not what I see. With the formation of WGs the bulk of development & leadership has shifted to the WGs. Some of the WGs are functioning really well while others are still ramping up. As an example KFP just
As you are one of the lead for notebooks, you would be one of the individuals everyone is looking to, to answer the following questions?
Do you feel the @kubeflow/wg-notebook-leads are able to answer those questions?
I would suggest we table discussions on broader governance and get back to the topic at hand. I don't want to completely ignore this question so here's a short reply. Since July we've focused on forming WGs. Right now the focus should be on ensuring those WGs are fully operational and successful kubeflow/projects#42. Anyone looking to have broader influence needs to earn that influence by showing they can successfully execute on important priorities.
@thesuperzapper I love the enthusiasm, are you planning on contributing to one of the existing distributions or starting a new one? Looking at https://www.kubeflow.org/docs/started/k8s/ It looks like the following might fit your description Which one of these is closest to what you envision? What would be the next steps? Are you planning on helping to drive it forward? Would you be willing to fix some of the open issues for the kfctl_k8s_istio_dex? Perhaps you could help get one of these distributions ready/tested for KF 1.2? |
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It seems like most of the points relating to this proposal have been settled, so I'd love to move forward with adopting this. I share @jlewi's viewpoint that this is the best path for community productivity in the near term. /lgtm |
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Those YAMLs are already maintained by @kubeflow/manifests WG and application owners should be responsible for documenting how to deploy the application with bare kubernetes. e.g. pipelines is providing https://www.kubeflow.org/docs/pipelines/installation/standalone-deployment/ that anyone can deploy to any k8s cluster. If all we need is simply putting them together, then why do we need a WG to do that? Each vendor should be able to easily pick what they want and put together the reference distribution and adapt to their own needs. Anyone is also free to put together the "generic" distribution or form a group that contribute to one "generic" distribution. |
There has been significant debate about what to do about Kubeflow distributions
See: #402
Thread
Arrikto Proposal
I believe this proposal captures the conensus among the leads.
/cc @kubeflow/project-steering-group
/cc @kubeflow/wg-notebook-leads
/cc @kubeflow/wg-pipeline-leads
/cc @kubeflow/wg-automl-leads
/cc @kubeflow/wg-training-leads
/cc @cvenets @yanniszark @RFMVasconcelos @animeshsingh @paveldournov @johnugeorge @krishnadurai @Jeffwan