Missing label 'Left' and 'Right' as Property

[dorahermes]

In the current HED schema library, there is no 'Left' and 'Right' as a Property, only as a relation. Now, this created issues when trying to describe doing something with your left or right hand.

Currently, your left hand would be described as (Hand, (Left-side-of, Body)), now this creates obvious issues because your left hand is not always on the left of your body, and creates obvious issues if you want to describe the task instruction 'touch your right ear with your left hand' (example based on previous input from @smakeig ).

Another example of when this may creates issues is when the task would be to look from the left to the right. My intuition would indicate that I would use (Left, (From-to, Right)) but that is invalid, and we'd have to use something much more intricate (note that Rightward is incorrect in this case).

Therefore, I think that adding 'Left' and 'Right' as Properties would be extremely helpful, probably as a Categorical-level-value (which already includes High and Low).

[dorahermes]

As just discussed, Left and Right would be useful as a Categorical-location-value. This section could also include Superior, Inferior, Anterior and Posterior.

[VisLab]

An example path in the schema would be:

Property/Data-Property/Data-value/Categorical-value/Categorical-location-value/Left

Proposed description: Pertaining to a thing located on the west side of a body when facing north, for example the left hand or the left hip. (Adapted from the Oxford English Dictionary).

Other terms would be defined similarly. What I am trying to capture is that it is a category applied to a thing related to a body.
@dorahermes @monique2208 @smakeig @neuromechanist please weigh in.

[smakeig]

Left ... related to the left side of an agent body (from the point of view of the agent) or object (from the point of view of an agent). thus ... "moves left (leftward?) in the scene ..." "box with its left front corner chipped" "dog with her left front leg bandaged" ...

…

On Wed, Feb 14, 2024 at 5:53 AM Kay Robbins ***@***.***> wrote: An example path in the schema would be: Property/Data-Property/Data-value/Categorical-value/Categorical-location-value/Left *Proposed description:* Pertaining to a thing located on the west side of a body when facing north, for example the left hand or the left hip. (Adapted from the Oxford English Dictionary). Other terms would be defined similarly. What I am trying to capture is that it is a category applied to a thing related to a body. @dorahermes <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dorahermes__;!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPSCeittd$> @monique2208 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/monique2208__;!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPTDLed_9$> @smakeig <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPWzdr2GB$> @neuromechanist <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/neuromechanist__;!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPc5njXSb$> please weigh in. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-schemas/issues/137*issuecomment-1943813877__;Iw!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPa43Rrke$>, or unsubscribe <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFRPAW2PFBNQJW4ZETLYTS6W7AVCNFSM6AAAAABDAAGXR6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTSNBTHAYTGOBXG4__;!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPX5IE5jJ$> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

[neuromechanist]

I wonder how this tag would fair with the currently available `Left-side-of`? Also, a similar concern would be that using the `Left` or `Right` tag alone would be ambiguous. Should they always be grouped with another tag, and/or should the `Left` tag be an alias for the `Left-side-of` tag?

[VisLab]

As with other categorical tags, it is assumed it would be grouped with another tag: (Left, Hand). Currently we tag the left hand as (Hand, (Left-side-of, Body)). They would be equivalent I guess. On Wed, Feb 14, 2024 at 12:27 PM Seyed (Yahya) Shirazi < ***@***.***> wrote:

…

I wonder how this tag would fair with the currently available `Left-side-of`? Also, a similar concern would be that using the `Left` or `Right` tag alone would be ambiguous. Should they always be grouped with another tag, and/or should the `Left` tag be an alias for the `Left-side-of` tag? > On Feb 14, 2024, at 7:07 AM, smakeig ***@***.***> wrote: > > > Left ... related to the left side of an agent body (from the point of view > of the agent) or object (from the point of view of an agent). > > thus ... "moves left (leftward?) in the scene ..." > "box with its left front corner chipped" > "dog with her left front leg bandaged" > ... > > > On Wed, Feb 14, 2024 at 5:53 AM Kay Robbins ***@***.***> > wrote: > > > An example path in the schema would be: > > > > > > Property/Data-Property/Data-value/Categorical-value/Categorical-location-value/Left > > > > *Proposed description:* Pertaining to a thing located on the west side of > > a body when facing north, for example the left hand or the left hip. > > (Adapted from the Oxford English Dictionary). > > > > Other terms would be defined similarly. What I am trying to capture is > > that it is a category applied to a thing related to a body. > > @dorahermes > > < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dorahermes__;!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPSCeittd$> > > @monique2208 > > < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/monique2208__;!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPTDLed_9$> > > @smakeig > > < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPWzdr2GB$> > > @neuromechanist > > < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/neuromechanist__;!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPc5njXSb$> > > please weigh in. > > > > — > > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > > < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-schemas/issues/137*issuecomment-1943813877__;Iw!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPa43Rrke$>, > > or unsubscribe > > < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFRPAW2PFBNQJW4ZETLYTS6W7AVCNFSM6AAAAABDAAGXR6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTSNBTHAYTGOBXG4__;!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPX5IE5jJ$> > > . > > You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: > > ***@***.***> > > > — > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub < #137 (comment)>, or unsubscribe < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKWTSW6Y3N6EZZRKCROXX6TYTTHLHAVCNFSM6AAAAABDAAGXR6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTSNBUGAZDGNRYGU>. > You are receiving this because you were mentioned. > — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#137 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAJCJOTJHB4LO3HDTXWAE4DYTT6XRAVCNFSM6AAAAABDAAGXR6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTSNBUGM3TGNZZGM> . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: ***@***.***>

[smakeig]

Perhaps our concern should also be for the uses of Left to modify a noun ('On the Left within [object]) ..." versus to modify a verb ('Moving left[ward] in/on ...) On Wed, Feb 14, 2024 at 10:27 AM Seyed (Yahya) Shirazi < ***@***.***> wrote:

…

I wonder how this tag would fair with the currently available `Left-side-of`? Also, a similar concern would be that using the `Left` or `Right` tag alone would be ambiguous. Should they always be grouped with another tag, and/or should the `Left` tag be an alias for the `Left-side-of` tag? > On Feb 14, 2024, at 7:07 AM, smakeig ***@***.***> wrote: > > > Left ... related to the left side of an agent body (from the point of view > of the agent) or object (from the point of view of an agent). > > thus ... "moves left (leftward?) in the scene ..." > "box with its left front corner chipped" > "dog with her left front leg bandaged" > ... > > > On Wed, Feb 14, 2024 at 5:53 AM Kay Robbins ***@***.***> > wrote: > > > An example path in the schema would be: > > > > > > Property/Data-Property/Data-value/Categorical-value/Categorical-location-value/Left > > > > *Proposed description:* Pertaining to a thing located on the west side of > > a body when facing north, for example the left hand or the left hip. > > (Adapted from the Oxford English Dictionary). > > > > Other terms would be defined similarly. What I am trying to capture is > > that it is a category applied to a thing related to a body. > > @dorahermes > > < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dorahermes__;!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPSCeittd$%3E > > @monique2208 > > < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/monique2208__;!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPTDLed_9$%3E > > @smakeig > > < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPWzdr2GB$%3E > > @neuromechanist > > < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/neuromechanist__;!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPc5njXSb$%3E > > please weigh in. > > > > — > > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > > < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-schemas/issues/137*issuecomment-1943813877__;Iw!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPa43Rrke$%3E, > > or unsubscribe > > < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFRPAW2PFBNQJW4ZETLYTS6W7AVCNFSM6AAAAABDAAGXR6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTSNBTHAYTGOBXG4__;!!Mih3wA!DjwJzzbuQ_qQvWI3P0Kk4btkyKocvZJznHYBpwRW335-wuMLxzUWOEshkcDGpWBr509QkHdOHlW9odMGPX5IE5jJ$%3E > > . > > You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: > > ***@***.***> > > > — > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub < #137 (comment)> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-schemas/issues/137*issuecomment-1944023685*3E__;IyU!!Mih3wA!GC-zsjLR_i5yClgj20K3RLUWTFGydXPU8EHdHuwrRNnU3v29iedjyM4z8ehyOVC4xDt-xCIz06qLsPej1Ig7h5cP$>, or unsubscribe < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKWTSW6Y3N6EZZRKCROXX6TYTTHLHAVCNFSM6AAAAABDAAGXR6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTSNBUGAZDGNRYGU> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKWTSW6Y3N6EZZRKCROXX6TYTTHLHAVCNFSM6AAAAABDAAGXR6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTSNBUGAZDGNRYGU*3E__;JQ!!Mih3wA!GC-zsjLR_i5yClgj20K3RLUWTFGydXPU8EHdHuwrRNnU3v29iedjyM4z8ehyOVC4xDt-xCIz06qLsPej1CLVj0Q5$>. > You are receiving this because you were mentioned. > — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-schemas/issues/137*issuecomment-1944373793__;Iw!!Mih3wA!GC-zsjLR_i5yClgj20K3RLUWTFGydXPU8EHdHuwrRNnU3v29iedjyM4z8ehyOVC4xDt-xCIz06qLsPej1BghvOgl$>, or unsubscribe <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFSJYDJIR5H3ZWDT3FLYTT6XRAVCNFSM6AAAAABDAAGXR6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTSNBUGM3TGNZZGM__;!!Mih3wA!GC-zsjLR_i5yClgj20K3RLUWTFGydXPU8EHdHuwrRNnU3v29iedjyM4z8ehyOVC4xDt-xCIz06qLsPej1CiRszO5$> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

[neuromechanist]

Following @dorahermes suggestion:

As just discussed, Left and Right would be useful as a Categorical-location-value. This section could also include Superior, Inferior, Anterior and Posterior,

I would suggest also including Medial and Lateral.

[dorahermes]

Just noting that (Hand,(Left-side-of, Body)) is not equivalent to (Left,Hand), as you can also hold your right hand on the left side of your body: ((Right,Hand),(Left-side-of, Body))

[dorahermes]

Update after HED-working group meeting: Left ... relating to the left side of an agent body (from the point of view of the agent) or left side of an object (from the point of view of an agent). This pertains to the identity of the agent or thing. HED-spatial relations should be used for relative positions (e.g.).

[VisLab]

This is addressed in PR #140. However, I did not add Medial and Lateral at this time as I could not come up with an "identity" type defintiion. This needs further discussion.

[smakeig]

Medial - Describing the central portion of an object, particularly applied to an (anterior-posterior, superior-inferior) surface of the human brain

…

On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 2:21 PM Kay Robbins ***@***.***> wrote: This is addressed in PR #140 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-schemas/pull/140__;!!Mih3wA!GOlKgIphmcDYm6FPvBwcOJhipUOy22Q4Ec-W72ky00u5vnfyEMhIHZX8BUcNQAhMhKGEvwvgFVz1EW-U1YatW1Q9$>. However, I did not add Medial and Lateral at this time as I could not come up with an "identity" type defintiion. This needs further discussion. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-schemas/issues/137*issuecomment-1957742554__;Iw!!Mih3wA!GOlKgIphmcDYm6FPvBwcOJhipUOy22Q4Ec-W72ky00u5vnfyEMhIHZX8BUcNQAhMhKGEvwvgFVz1EW-U1UOwOMo4$>, or unsubscribe <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AKN2SFVUJ5MFA7BL42OC2CDYUZCKNAVCNFSM6AAAAABDAAGXR6VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTSNJXG42DENJVGQ__;!!Mih3wA!GOlKgIphmcDYm6FPvBwcOJhipUOy22Q4Ec-W72ky00u5vnfyEMhIHZX8BUcNQAhMhKGEvwvgFVz1EW-U1eBfxeOL$> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

[VisLab]

How about "Identifying" rather than "Describing"?

[neuromechanist]

Looking at medlineplus.gov:

medial: Medial means toward the middle or center. source
lateral: A position away from the midline of the body. source

Comparing these definitions to the one proposed by @smakeig, it seems that using the toward in the definitions would be beneficial.

[dorahermes]

This is great, I can also fix several SCORE issues and suggest simple temporal relations like (Left, (Before, Right))

When checking this, I noted in the temporal relations that the instruction miss a comma in After and Before: they state (A, (Before B)) rather than (A, (Before, B)) .

[dorahermes]

Another question, I want to add an example of some quantity (e.g. weight/amplitude) being less than a certain value, but can't find how to add the units, how can I add kilogram to: (Weight, (Less-than, (Weight/30)))? thanks!

[VisLab]

Addressed in PR#149