For December 2018 #95
Comments
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Hi, I just want to give a quick feedback (traveling and not enough time to read all).
190k BSQ (equivalent to 190k USD) for translations is far off. I would not accept such a request with my voting power. Calculation based on words and past numbers is not a good metric. Why not just take what you have paid to the translators as your base and use that? I know it is hard and probably past contributions have been over-paid. But when you look at other requests (e.g. a request for a full month dev work is about 7-14k BSQ) you will see that this is not in balance. |
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Ok, thank you.
Will do.
If you try to hire professional, or even freelance native speaker
translators, you'll find that by the word is how they charge.
The highest such rate we've been quoted by the most accomplished
professional translators has been 0.07 USD / word.
If 1 BSQ = 1 USD, then even last month's translation request in #91 was
wildly overpaid:
#91
Even at that top professional rate, the 143 word translation, for which
the contributor was paid 300 BSQ, becomes 10 BSQ.
We've so far translated and reviewed over 45,000 words, in 4 unrelated
languages, with completely different alphabets, in high-risk jurisdictions.
Plus we had people assigned to find, interview and coordinate them.
So, it doesn't seem fair that we should be paid bottom rates for trying
to quickly complete languages like Russian for example, which haven't
been completed or had even one string reviewed years since their
translation started.
We will of course accept whatever the stakeholders consider fair.
How do we find the lowest rate per word that a translation contributor
was compensated in BSQ, and we'll recalculate using that?
Would that be acceptable?
Thank you for our attention.
i
CCG
gpg: B03B 3301 83F3 A497 F433 CCD3 4424 816B 8323 5B37
…On 07/29/2018 09:34 AM, Manfred Karrer wrote:
Hi, I just want to give a quick feedback (traveling and not enough time
to read all).
* The calculation with bond does not make sense. The arbitration bonds
are not defined either atm. So please remove that as that adds just
confusion.
* 1 BSQ is considered as 1 USD - as there is no market nobody knows
the real value (will likely be higher) but that is what all
contributors base on their contribution.
190k USD for translations is far off. I would not accept such a request
with my voting power. Calculation based on words and past numbers is not
a good metric. Why not just take what you have paid to the translators
as your base and use that? I know it is hard and probably past
contributions have been over-paid. But when you look at other requests
(e.g. a request for a full month dev work is about 7-14k BSQ) you will
see that this is not in balance.
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Concerning : #91
I'll (of course) adapt my june request to what is the real proper standard for this job. I think however that the price/word is not the same when you translate pages and full sentences, than when you translate just one isolated word and the other. Since it's not a big amount, I think/suggest maybe the best is I'll simply annulate the BSQ request for this june translation task. (Others may use it as a wrong reference). |
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We don't begrudge any contributor what they were paid.
In fact your valuation seems reasonable, because it seems rather a
stretch to arbitrarily set a token that doesn't yet exist and has no
market value at 1 USD equivalent.
Even Bitcoin didn't start that way; hence 10000 BTC pizzas back then... :)
At this stage 1 BSQ = 0.01 USD or even 1 satoshi seems more appropriate.
However, Bisq is not our organization.
So, we naturally accept whatever the founders consider appropriate.
Perhaps, the bigger question then is what else has been wildly
overcompensated in BSQ, since compensation in it began, and overlooked,
because it was paid for small task blocks to individuals.
We just highlighted this question by delivering so quickly such a large
and complete block of initial work as a group effort.
i
CCG
gpg: B03B 3301 83F3 A497 F433 CCD3 4424 816B 8323 5B37
…On 07/29/2018 02:02 PM, Harry MacFinned wrote:
Concerning : #91 <#91>
* this was my very first comp. request here,
* and I never did professionnal paid translation before (not my job),
* and I didn't find myself a reference for what to ask
* and it only concerned a small number of words
* and I didn't suggest using this "evaluation" as a reference
I'll (of course) adapt my june request to what is the proper standard
for this job.
I think however that the price/word is not the same when you translate
pages and full sentences, than when you translate just one isolated word
and the other.
I don't say that for the small task I've done (doesn't seriously
matter), but for wanting to have the translations done.
Since it's not a big amount, I think/suggest maybe the best is I'll
simply annulate the BSQ request for this june translation task. (Others
may use it as a wrong reference).
And I may ask it later when we have better reference for how the
translation task should be valued.
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@initCCG The 1 USD = 1 BSQ valuation is what we use since the beginning of the DAO and to change that would render all past requests incompatible as well all requests of other contributors. I also dont think that this is over valued, there will be 2.5 M BSQ which will represent the project value. Compared to OpenBazaar which got valuation of about 20-30M by the investment they received from VCs I think Bisq's project value is likely higher than 2.5M USD. Your 0.01 USD would render it to 25 000 USD, that is even less as what we have on the donation address and would be also the "printing costs of a BSQ in BTC (e.g. the 2.5 BTC used for funding the genesis tx). Your numbers you mentioned above with 0.07 USD / word and 45k words would result in 3150 USD, so that would be very far away from 190k BSQ (USD). I understand that the confusion is coming from a different USD valuation you are using but as said that would render requests from different persons incompatible. Please try to find a realistic USD value which you feel good with convert that to BSQ according to the "consensus exchange rate" of 1 USD/BSQ and adjust the request. |
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@ManfredKarrer Thank you. Understood. Adjusted. |
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@initCCG Thanks for the update! And thanks for the overview about the different markets. |
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@initCCG Thanks for your detailed compensation request and contribution! The only thing I want to discuss is, if we should/want to have the same incentive structure as for development work. For development, only code that is actually shipped in a release is up for compensation. So the pull request might be merged to master already, but not shipped and thus not available to the end user. The reason for this is, that we only want to compensate anything that has direct end user value. If we do it for translations the same, it would mean you could do a compensation request after next release, which will happen this month. What do you think? |
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+1 for delivered work in the context of translations meaning that they are included in a Bisq release. |
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As for the delivering, I would consider words being on the transifex as delivered, 2/ Also, translation may concern people happening to have just some hours this or this day to do a part of the job, and not at all planning to finish completely a translation. 3/ translations may be done by people having 0 knowledge about Bisq, and just arriving here by hazard. If the rules are not straightforward, I fear they will not deepen a lot. They'll simply jump to something else. As @BravoIndia wrote, the fact that very few translations were done in the first half of 2018 should be questioning. We have to navigate between 2 reefs : overpaying ... and haven translations not done, even not beginning. |
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@HarryMacfinned Seconded. @ripcurlx to expand on my opinion as to why words on transifex should considered delivered, when only development work that is shipped in a release is compensated, I'll paste my comments from #96 :
A partial translation is, in principle, valuable. Just like code on a 0.x release is valuable, even though it's not on the 1.0 release yet. A partial translation is not partial in the same sense as 'partial code' is partial. @ManfredKarrer raised some very interesting concerns in the other thread (#96), answering as to how some translation work might not be worth the cost. And he's right that that's a possibility. But in the case of the languages currently open on transifex, by paying a standard market-rate for translation I think it's overwhelmingly the case that Bisq will get a substantial bang for their buck, considering how cheap it is to acquire and how effective having the software in the local-language is for market penetration. I mean, how many private companies wanting to expand internationally would not pay like $10,000 for their software to be translated into 3 languages? I think allowing compensation requests for partial translations, and paying a decent rate is the right move. And that incentivizing more translation work should be the higher priority. |
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I agree that the amount @initCCG requested is very low and he deserves a higher compensation. Thanks @BravoIndia to bring that up! I personally would like to delegate that to one who feels responsible to the translation area and come up with a suggestion which works for all who are currently involved. Simplicity of the model is for sure a great plus. |
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I have the same feeling. It's also true that having languages translations ... without arbitrators in the given language, is certainly a really hard issue (speaking from the support cubicle !). |
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As we mentioned, we are not in a hurry to receive this compensation. We
thought that we had to meet some kind of July deadline, and put
submitted it now.
We will change it to whichever month you wish.
i
CCG
gpg: B03B 3301 83F3 A497 F433 CCD3 4424 816B 8323 5B37
…On 07/30/2018 06:46 AM, Christoph Atteneder wrote:
@initCCG <https://github.com/initCCG> Thanks for your detailed
compensation request and contribution! The only thing I want to discuss
is, if we should/want to have the same incentive structure as for
development work. For development, only code that is actually shipped in
a release is up for compensation. So the pull request might be merged to
master already, but not shipped and thus not available to the end user.
The reason for this is, that we only want to compensate anything that
has direct end user value. If we do it for translations the same, it
would mean you could do a compensation request after next release, which
will happen this month. What do you think?
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@initCCG |
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One member of our alliance has followed Bisq since hearing an interview
about it in 2016.
This trial involvement has been useful for us, and we understand much
more about the status of Bisq project and its organizational structure.
It is difficult to absorb so much verbose, complicated discussion in a
foreign language.
We have a professional spokesperson in English, but we would have to
bring him up to date on this, and expend his man-hours to work it,
further increasing our costs, which we don't consider worthwhile doing yet.
We have already endangered ourselves and our subcontractors enough
simply by funding Bisq translations for our significant markets that are
ruled by soldiers and other militants, where Bisq/BTC are actually
needed. So, we respectfully decline to join any calls at this time.
The compensation mechanism proposal we have would add complexity, as you
indicated regarding compensation in arbitrator bonds, which seems
similar to the way "gas" and "Eth" are are used.
That debate would draw attention from development, which would be
counterproductive for us and Bisq.
We are sure that our initial translations are not perfect, and continue
to be "WIP".
We humbly accept whatever compensation will be awarded us by the
stakeholders, under the rules of Bisq founders and your organization.
Buddha Nature tells us that "When words are the same as silence, better
to be silent".
We apologize that we cannot spend more man-hours and be more helpful on
the compensation mechanism.
We don't expect to have further comments on this matter at this time.
Thank you for your attention and consideration.
CCG
---
#Plow with Carabao!
#Plow like Carabao!
gpg: B03B 3301 83F3 A497 F433 CCD3 4424 816B 8323 5B37
…On 07/31/2018 06:11 AM, Manfred Karrer wrote:
@initCCG <https://github.com/initCCG>
You can add a WIP (work in progress) to the title if you want to
postpone it for next month and change title to August instead of July.
There is no expiry data on completed work, so no issue if you move it to
next month.
I would recommend to do it as there are quite a bit of discussion going
on to find a proper model how to compensate translation work and your
current amount feels too low to me (and others). We are all in a
learning period here as the model of our DAO is new and we need to find
the best practice...
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@initCCG I am sorry to hear that it gets too complicated for you but understand it. |
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Moved to September due to Thai formatting problem, new strings, and Persian review second opinion. |
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Persian and Vietnamese new strings still not finished. Thai pending Java 10 integration. |
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Java 10 support will be part of release 0.9.0 mid of October. |
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Not yet delivered, pending 0.9.0 release and Persian review. |
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Not yet delivered, pending 0.9.0 release. |
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Vietnamese and our part of Thai initial delivered. |
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Closing as complete, see #183 (comment). |
Summary
BSQ requested: 2203 BSQ
BSQ address: B1Q9UGZyuoQJ7tGSjFx11D64dvz47RY86XM
7 real people have been involved in the work below - most as paid contractors, others as volunteers.
Details
For professional, technical translation by native speakers, the prevailing real market rate we encountered was 0.05 - 0.07 USD / word. We request 0.015 USD / word.
After all, we paid 0.025 USD / word for initial Thai review, and to complete Vietnamese to current level, additional of $76 + $44 = $120.
Liquidity weeks pay 20 BSQ / week. So at that rate, we request:
Contributions delivered
Funded and delivered full initial translations of 2 languages -- Vietnamese, Thai.
Funded and delivered full initial reviews of 2 languages -- Vietnamese, Thai.
Delivered more than 10 percent translation and completion of Russian translation
Delivered 85 percent review of Russian translation
Hiring and management of translators and reviewers in all above languages
More than 8 months of market making in XMR
More than 2 months of low-spread market making in VND
More than 4 months sell-side liquidity in USD and THB, including first THB-BTC trade
(our trader node address available upon request)
Links to contributions you have delivered:
https://www.transifex.com/bisq/bisq-desktop/dashboard/
The amount of BSQ requested for each: Please see above.
Comments that will help stakeholders understand its value:
As most know, and many liquidity weeks show, the developed world doesn't need Bitcoin very much, much less decentralized Bitcoin exchanges. We propose that Bitcoin is most needed and has the most potential on territories owned by groups with unwise and antiquated governing philosophies.
3 examples featured in this block of our work:
Thailand: The Southeast Asia economic leader, with tremendous wealth and potential, and relatively open to trade. However, the ruling elite is militaristic, exceptionally hierarchical and medieval in their mindset. The general population is industrious, but incredibly brainwashed, and the epitome of the word "sheeple". The ruling gang has just instituted a tax on Bitcoin trading, which can be as high as 22%: 15% capital gains, and 7% VAT. The traders are not yet concerned, because of the "live in the moment" idiosyncrasy of the Buddhist culture...
THB is not weak, and did surprisingly well during GFC, but it's not stronger than Bitcoin.
The centralized exchange operators - as their colleagues worldwide - are not interested in decentralized Bitcoin trading, or any of Bitcoin's core ideology. In fact, they are staunchly opposed to it. They only need Bitcoin to become part of the wealthy elite, without changing the status-quo. They are consolidating their power, and will use the government gang to protect their business from competition, including Bisq...
Thai language is rather different from English, and few there know the latter well. Even those that think that they do, really don't, and the desire to learn English among the general population seems rather low, compare to learning Chinese for example.
Vietnam: The new destination of choice for business - big and small - fleeing the worsening business conditions in China.
Incredibly well positioned and endowed with such a long coastline and relatively industrious, educated population - not stuck in an entrenched, centuries-old caste system, the way for example Thailand and India are.
Much Bitcoin trading goes on in Vietnam, but most of it through shady Vietnamese language Telegram and other social network apps, without the protection that Bisq can offer.
The Vietnamese ding dong (VND) has been irresponsibly wrecked by the usual suspects, and all who come there instantly become millionaires in it...
The rulers are unwise, militant, and prone to unpredictable, knee-jerk parroting of regulators in surrounding authoritarian territories.
The Vietnamese language is impossibly difficult and different from English - both in pronunciation and for example in the insane number of personal pronouns. There is a great desire among the population and young elite to learn and speak English, but it's very difficult even for them to learn due to the languages being so different.
Russia: Basically continues to be a Franco-Pinochet style dictatorship, which is essentially in a geopolitical situation similar to that of Iran, but with more power and resources to cope with it. Much of the elite holds rather libertarian views, consistent with Bitcoin's core ideology, and has been the source of much libertarian thought for more than a hundred years - Kropotkin, Bakunin, etc.
The RUR was of course demolished - yet again during our lifetime - in 2014. And it seems personal with the Russian leadership to be able to get out of the USD hegemony in some way they can control - same as it seems with the Iranians.
Russians have been relatively active in Bitcoin from the OG days - second only to the Anglos and Germans maybe. The leadership is incredibly backwards and unenlightened, however, and could crack down on every kind of Bitcoin trading under any insane pretext.
A lot of the educated population understands English enough to be able to use Bisq in it, but of course Cyrillic alphabet is significantly different and Russia is like the US in language conditions: one can travel through several time zones, and never need to use anything besides Russian. So, there's little incentive to learn English for those who don't travel out of Russia and former Soviet republics much...
That is our view, and why we consider it imperative for Bisq to gain every possible foothold in these markets, before the powers that should not be in them are able to consolidate their control over the Bitcoin trade.
These Bisq translations are meant to facilitate Bisq advancement there.
Contributions in progress
https://www.transifex.com/bisq/bisq-desktop/language/fa/
Roles performed
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