Tank speed balancing #1809
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Speed increase would help China a lot. Speed of 27.5 would break the speed step size of 5 which all units adhere to if I am not mistaken. It should be 30 then. Also, it is odd that upgraded Overlord is 30 only while Battlemaster is 35. Would it not be better if they upgraded to the same speed? |
xezon
added
Design
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Vast majority of Chinese units move at 40. Would be neat if at least with Nuclear Tanks, BM reached 40 speed, although it might be op, idk. |
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I doubt 40 speed would make it op, it's already underused, and that upgrade is quite an investment and very lategame, i think we can get away with increased speed for both BMs and Ovies |
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Battle Master base:30 upgraded:40 ? |
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The only thing why I still doubted the 30 speed, is the combination of changes we made to China, like Stealth might even struggle a bit vs Tank BM spam. Remember the faster building dozer for faster truck rush and less Elite BM XP. That said, I just compared the BM with the Crusader ingame, the difference is pretty minor actually. |
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Upgraded, I think BM to 40 and Ovie to 35 is fine. Nuke BM and Ovie are still faster then indeed. Considering the investment, it's pretty sad BM's are still slower than any other standard unit in the game. |
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Ok so it should look like:
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Wouldn't this make more sense then? It looks odd to me if Overlord just gets +5 and Battle Master +10 for the Upgrade.
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They already give +10 and +5 to BM and Ovie Respectively in 1.04 It checks out even though it's a bit weird but the idea is that vanilla counterparts are always the same speed and the difference comes after the upgrade (which Nuke General has by default) |
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And then Nuke BM will still be +5 Faster than VBM |
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I can see that the Original has the same Upgrade discrepancy. I would like to challenge this discrepancy. |
Yea the Overlords top speed doesn't need to be as fast as a Crusader, I think the 15 acceleration is what hurts most, could buff that to 20 instead, or 25 if that's not enough. |
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The actual Overlord speed is 20, not 25. |
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I just noticed that indeed, I used value from Locomotor Tank_OverlordLocomotor assuming that was the Emperor. |
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This would be my proposal for China Overlord for starters #1813 |
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That should make the case a little easier. I think this could be the sweetspot:
The Overlord and Emperor will both receive a slight top speed and acceleration buff (pre-upgrade). Another important value is the turnrate, which is 60 for the Overlord/Emperor (pre- and post upgrade) and 80 for the Nuke Overlord. Not sure if these need adjustments. |
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We had discussion about Battlemaster here |
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Proposal for Battlemasters: #1815 |
The Same should be applied to Emperor
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I do not think the Emperor needs to be faster because a) It is the strongest Tank in the game It is a driving Propaganda Tower essentially. Mixed with Autoloader Battlemasters likely deadly efficient. If it drives around to fast, opponents will struggle. |
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a) In a direct 1v1 vs other tanks it might be the strongest but it says nothing about it's effectiveness in actual games, it's actually rather easy to deal with for many factions, not only that, producing those can even backfire as they're so easily captured and can not in retreat when in danger. b) Other Overlords also have subliminal messaging with selfhealing, including the Nuke Overlord, which is by far the most effective version, exactly due to it's speed and used quite in bit in actual games. c) Tank General is more competitive due to other factors, Emperors barely contribute to the more positive winrate, if at all. Mainly the Gats, Dragons and BM's make the difference. Other Overlords are also driving Propaganda Towevers (subliminal changes nothing here), the only difference is the price, we can look into the pricing as counter. But yes, Tank BM's are extremely strong and used alot in games, however you didn't show the same balance concerns with this change: #1815 |
The Tank Battlemaster is essentially the same unit, except for having Vet1 or Vet2 on spawn. Therefore speed discrepancy would not be plausible here. |
With the knowledge Elite veterancy makes all the difference balance wise, it strikes me as odd that this buff is so easily considered in comparison. My point is, Tank BM's are bigger gamechangers than Emperors, with less cons, especially after XP reduction. Nobody will even consider slow Emperors anymore after these two changes, why not buff them too? Furthermore, while Tank is more competitive vs GLA and USA, it suffers vs other China's (in longer games). It needs something late game and Emperors are the only units that are just a little less vurnerable vs Nuke Cannons. |
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We can revert Tank Battlemaster speed back to 25 if you think it is not ok to buff. I do not feel strongly about it, as Tank likely still is good with slower Battlemasters. As for faster Emperor, you need to come up with convincing Rationale. I have not seen it yet. Emperor is very good unit, especially now with Subliminal Messaging and grouped with Battlemasters which benefit greatly from Subliminal + Autoloader + Vet2 + Nationalism. |
BM change needs to be tested in several matchups, I think it will be ok, difference between BM and Crusader doesn't feel that drastic in 1.04. Emperor change is less impacting on balace and therefor easier to accept imo. |
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Have to Agree with Tim here, BMs have more impact on the battlefield Furthermore, Tank is strongest at the Early stages, by the time they get Emperors or the nuke upgrade they're already facing a well established enemy where tank general losses against most of the times, whether it be Vs Nuke Cannons/Infernos of Chinas, SnD USA, or a Turtling GLA |
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Battlemaster and Overlord movements have been dealt with. This report can be closed. |
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Emperor was not dealt with though, still the same old clunky unit :( BM's will be favored even more now. I'm sure it will not hurt. |
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agree with Exile, Emperor should get the same treatment |
Battle Masters and especially Overlords (Emperors) are painfully slow, a huge part of why they suck, Battle Masters often are often easily outflanked by Dragon Tanks, while they're supposed to be the counter unit. Overlords are extremely easy targets for Terror Techs.
40/1000 seems to be the standard most units and BM's/Overlord seem to be the outliers. Would a small buff like 27.5 be justified?
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