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Add missing Krav Maga weapons #33867

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Add missing Krav Maga weapons #33867

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ghost
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@ghost ghost commented Sep 7, 2019

Summary

SUMMARY: Features "More Krav Maga weapon compatibility"

Purpose of change

The rebalance of Krav Maga in #33602 states the baseline for gun compatibility is automatic rifles and semi-auto pistols. As such, there were service rifles/a service pistol missing from the list.

Describe the solution

Added compatibility for the M9, M4A1, M16A4, SCAR-H(L was already allowed), HK416A5 and HK417A2. Also re-alphabetized the SCAR-L given the format of alphabetized melee-pistol-rifle.

Describe alternatives you've considered

No love for the Security Guard(M9), Military Recruit(M4A1), or Bionic Soldier(HK416A5). 😢

Additional context

Review requested from @Hymore246 / Martial Arts Man.

@ZhilkinSerg ZhilkinSerg added <Bugfix> This is a fix for a bug (or closes open issue) [JSON] Changes (can be) made in JSON Melee Melee weapons, tactics, techniques, reach attack labels Sep 7, 2019
Co-Authored-By: ZhilkinSerg <[email protected]>
@tenmillimaster
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tenmillimaster commented Sep 7, 2019

Are there some sources I could see about service weapons being used in krav maga? I'm not finding anything.

Oh, nevermind, I take it this isn't so much using the service weapon as a weapon as it is fighting while holding a gun?

@kevingranade
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The jist of it is that Krav Maga practitioners in the Israeli armed forces say they train with their service weapons as melee weapons. I haven't found any really good sources.

@ghost
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ghost commented Sep 7, 2019

The source Hymore used was http://www.your-krav-maga-expert.com/krav-maga-weapons.html

I also found these(can't find an IDF manual on the subject, only civilian training courses 😢):
"Does krav maga incorpoate weapons defenses" from https://kravmagaanc.com/?page_id=7574
Units 17 & 18 of https://www.maxkravmaga.com/krav-maga-global-curriculum/

Oh, nevermind, I take it this isn't so much using the service weapon as a weapon as it is fighting while holding a gun?

It is using the service weapon in melee.

(There's a reason I asked for Hymore to review this 😛)

@ghost
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ghost commented Sep 7, 2019

Approval from Hymore obtained. 😸
image

@tenmillimaster
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tenmillimaster commented Sep 7, 2019

The jist of it is that Krav Maga practitioners in the Israeli armed forces say they train with their service weapons as melee weapons. I haven't found any really good sources.

So... do Krav Maga teachers in the United States (not in israel) teach how to do this sort of thing?

There seem to be alot more hits on disarms than there are with fighting with a rifle. I'm just not so sure it's the sort of thing that a student in the states would actually learn.

@Night-Pryanik
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Damn, somehow missed this one (and #33602 too). In short, #25598 made it so style name will be shown only to melee weapons, so wielded pistols or rifles won't show style name.

@Hymore246
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Damn, somehow missed this one (and #33602 too). In short, #25598 made it so style name will be shown only to melee weapons, so wielded pistols or rifles won't show style name.

Hm, that's interesting. I always though style names were was automatically applied to weapon descriptions if it was on a whitelist. I'll look into that later.

As for the guns, anything is fine for Krav Maga if it is an automatic pistol or automatic rifle. I did my best with the research but I couldn't find anything about what specific weapons people are trained with in Krav Maga. So I had to take a more general approach to the weapons. CDDA isn't the best when it comes to searching for guns. The whole gun system must have been made by someone who loves guns and as a person without a lot of experience with firearms, I had to go through by hand and look at each pistol and rifle and added them if the description sounded correct. It doesn't surprise me that I missed some. So, good job on finding the rest!

@tenmillimaster
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These sources don't really clarify whether they're about disarming people with pistols and rifles. The IDF one does, but again, that's the IDF. In Israel.

If you're using a firearm as a "blunt implement", the type of firearm it is won't matter. The weight and volume of the firearm would matter a lot more. I think that martial arts using any non-long arm would be fine, so long as using it precludes some of the techniques of the art.

I think any martial art using a longarm should be limited to Bayonet Fencing and other such military-only style taught in camps (not krav maga).

Letting an art that uses a firearm very rarely, as it seems in krav maga, sounds like feature creep.

@Hymore246
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Hymore246 commented Sep 8, 2019

Letting an art that uses a firearm very rarely, as it seems in krav maga, sounds like feature creep.

This isn't feature creep. Brawling and Taekwondo already let you fight with firearms.

@tenmillimaster
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tenmillimaster commented Sep 9, 2019

Letting an art that uses a firearm very rarely, as it seems in krav maga, sounds like feature creep.

This isn't feature creep. Brawling and Taekwondo already let you fight with firearms.

Am I missing something here? This does not appear to be the case, looking at martial_art.json

{
"type": "martial_art",
"id": "style_taekwondo",
"name": "Taekwondo",
"description": "Taekwondo is the national sport of Korea, and was used by the South Korean army in the 20th century. Focused on kicks and so it does not benefit from wielded weapons. It also includes strength training; your blocks absorb extra damage the stronger you are.",
"initiate": [ "You adopt a narrow fighting stance.", "You adopts a narrow fighting stance." ],
"learn_difficulty": 5,
"arm_block": 2,
"leg_block": 3,
"force_unarmed": true,
"static_buffs": [
{
"id": "taekwondo_static",
"name": "Taekwondo",
"unarmed_allowed": true,
"flat_bonuses": [ [ "block", "str", 0.5 ] ],
"description": "Strength decreases damage when blocking."
}
],
"techniques": [ "tec_taekwondo_precise", "tec_taekwondo_push", "tec_taekwondo_sweep" ]
},

{
"type": "martial_art",
"id": "style_brawling",
"name": "Brawling",
"description": "You're used to hand-to-creature fighting. You know how to fight when unarmed or with any weapon to a certain extent. It's not stylish or sporting, but it gets the job done.",
"initiate": [ "You grit your teeth and prepare for a good fight.", "%s gets ready to brawl." ],
"autolearn": [ [ "melee", "1" ] ],
"arm_block": 1,
"leg_block": 7,
"allow_melee": true,
"techniques": [
"tec_brawl_disarm_unarmed",
"tec_brawl_feint_unarmed",
"tec_brawl_counter_unarmed",
"tec_brawl_break_unarmed",
"tec_brawl_power",
"tec_brawl_trip",
"tec_brawl_disarm_melee",
"tec_brawl_counter_melee",
"tec_brawl_feint_melee",
"tec_brawl_break_melee"
]
},

@Hymore246
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You can see the tags that let them use any weapon under the leg_block attribute: force_unarmed and allow_melee.

force_unarmed - style lets you use the techniques of the style regardless of the equipped weapon. You cannot blocked with the held item.

allow_melee - style treats ANY equipped item as if it was on the weapon whitelist. Unlike force_unarmed, you can still blocked with the weapon if it lets you.

force_unarmed has already been around and is the signature ability of Taekwondo. The logic for allow_melee was always there but I added the attribute myself awhile back to allow it to be toggled and to let it not break the logic in martialarts.cpp

@tenmillimaster
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Thank you for explaining. I'm a bit more sold on the weapons' use now as bludgeons, but I think this is going back to our 'learn from a book' problem still.

@ghost
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ghost commented Sep 9, 2019

There would then the problem of weapon bloat in the menu, there are a lot of compatible guns since Imre Lichtenfeld/the founder started teaching the style at the IDF. Could technically just pick ALL THE PISTOLS/AUTO-RIFLES!! Need another qualifier for style inclusion 🤔.

Ideas on additional qualifier, narrowest to largest range of weapons:
All 3 options: Has to have been service pistol/rifle after 1948(Lichtenfeld starts teaching at the IDF, source)

  1. Uses NATO rounds for rifles and pistols(5.56x45/7.62x51/9mm).
  2. Service rifle/pistol for Israel after 1948. Includes some Soviet guns unlike option 3.
  3. Service rifle/pistol for U.S. after 1948(NATO + .45 ACP, .40 S&W, and .30-06).

(I'd personally add in the Five-Seven and M1911 as exceptions due to Splinter Cell since Fisher primarily uses Krav Maga and the long-standing use respectively 😛 )

I'd also move KM to Melee Weapon Training, or otherwise upcost it by 1 point. Possibly increase the learn difficulty on the manual too.

@ghost
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ghost commented Sep 11, 2019

Closing until I get more research on what weapons KM primarily uses in the U.S.

@ghost ghost closed this Sep 11, 2019
@ghost ghost deleted the KravMagaWeps branch September 21, 2019 00:36
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6 participants