maxspeed=<countrycode>:<zone type> in US #813
Comments
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The user added |
In StreetComplete user is not selecting tag, app is doing this (user is answering questions that should be easy to answer using common sense and general knowledge, without knowledge about OSM tagging). So it does not matter at all whatever user knows how maxspeed tags work in OSM.
So tagging using by SC is not conflicting with local consensus, because it does not exists?
Are you claiming that USA has no concept of speed limits? AFAIK it is not true. |
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Yes - user is just answering questions and the app created the appropriate
tags. If I were to see the option for entering speed limit that says
US:urban or something similar I would not accept it because it's not
defined.
The US does have established speed limits as you stated, just but not
documented on the wiki. (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits)
For the case I referenced, maxspeed:type=US:urban is not a valid value. It
should be a number. The only exception is the variable speed limit ways,
which is tagged maxspeed:variable=*
To document speed limits in the US would require looking at every state,
county and city.
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How is the fact that the value of implicit speed limits are not documented in the wiki relevant here?
Am 29. Januar 2018 00:11:21 MEZ schrieb Clifford Snow <[email protected]>:
…Yes - user is just answering questions and the app created the
appropriate
tags. If I were to see the option for entering speed limit that says
US:urban or something similar I would not accept it because it's not
defined.
The US does have established speed limits as you stated, just but not
documented on the wiki.
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits)
For the case I referenced, maxspeed:type=US:urban is not a valid value.
It
should be a number. The only exception is the variable speed limit
ways,
which is tagged maxspeed:variable=*
To document speed limits in the US would require looking at every
state,
county and city.
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Do you mean it should be i.e. maxspeed:type=US-NY:urban?
Am 29. Januar 2018 00:11:21 MEZ schrieb Clifford Snow <[email protected]>:
…Yes - user is just answering questions and the app created the
appropriate
tags. If I were to see the option for entering speed limit that says
US:urban or something similar I would not accept it because it's not
defined.
The US does have established speed limits as you stated, just but not
documented on the wiki.
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits)
For the case I referenced, maxspeed:type=US:urban is not a valid value.
It
should be a number. The only exception is the variable speed limit
ways,
which is tagged maxspeed:variable=*
To document speed limits in the US would require looking at every
state,
county and city.
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#813 (comment)
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The US does not have nationwide implicit speed limits. Some states have implicit statewide speed limits, but those aren't often well-known, and the groupings vary from state to state, and sometimes within a state. For example, California's implicit groups are "non-highway streets in residential and business districts, school zones, and senior zones", "undivided two-lane highways", and "all other highways". Non-highway roads outside of urban areas don't appear to have an implicit speed limit other than "reasonable and prudent". In comparison, Washington's implicit groups are "state highways", "county roads", and "city and town streets". This covers everything, but literally the only place I've seen these speed limits mentioned is in the relevant section of the state law. If you were to ask the average person what the speed limit is on a road without a speed limit sign, they couldn't tell you. As a further complication, the city of Spokane, within Washington, has its own implicit groups: "arterials" and "all other roads". Other cities may have their own implicit speed limits, but I'm not familiar with them. A simple "maxspeed:type=US:urban" isn't meaningful. You'd need tags such as "maxspeed:type="US-WA:county", "maxspeed:type=US-WA-Spokane:arterial", and "maxspeed:type=US-CA:undivided-highway". And given that many of these implicit speed limits are not well-known, you're better off requiring that any speed limit in the United States be entered as a number. |
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Ok, I understand.
Though, if the implicit speed limit is not well known, how would a surveyor then be able to answer this with an explicit value?
Am 29. Januar 2018 09:57:43 MEZ schrieb Carnildo <[email protected]>:
…The US does not have nationwide implicit speed limits. Some states
have implicit statewide speed limits, but those aren't often
well-known, and the groupings vary from state to state, and sometimes
within a state.
For example, California's implicit groups are "non-highway streets in
residential and business districts, school zones, and senior zones",
"undivided two-lane highways", and "all other highways". Non-highway
roads outside of urban areas don't appear to have an implicit speed
limit other than "reasonable and prudent".
In comparison, Washington's implicit groups are "state highways",
"county roads", and "city and town streets". This covers everything,
but literally the only place I've seen these speed limits mentioned is
in the relevant section of the state law. If you were to ask the
average person what the speed limit is on a road without a speed limit
sign, they couldn't tell you.
As a further complication, the city of Spokane, within Washington, has
its own implicit groups: "arterials" and "all other roads". Other
cities may have their own implicit speed limits, but I'm not familiar
with them.
A simple "maxspeed:type=US:urban" isn't meaningful. You'd need tags
such as "maxspeed:type="US-WA:county",
"maxspeed:type=US-WA-Spokane:arterial", and
"maxspeed:type=US-CA:undivided-highway". And given that many of these
implicit speed limits are not well-known, you're better off requiring
that any speed limit in the United States be entered as a number.
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When I use the app if I know the speed limit I add it. For instance, in my
town, residential streets are mostly 25mph. In the county, unclassified are
35mph. Based on where I'm at, I know the speed limit. Other counties and
cities use other defaults. Unless I know what they are I don't add the
speed limit.
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It is good that you know this, but I fear that StreetComplete must do more here because it can not assume that every surveyor, like you, knows about the regulations what limits apply when and can be trusted to input the correct values without err. As @Carnildo mentions, if it is irrelevant (in certain states) in the US whether a road is urban or rural for which implicit speed limit applies, StreetComplete should not record this. This kind of special rules need to be implemented for the US as well, ASAP, as for every week where StreetComplete asks for urban vs. rural in places where it is irrelevant is adding useless information. Since no documentation exists yet in the OpenStreetMap wiki, we need to do the research here by ourselves. Let's use this issue for that. Perhaps, if we are fast (and perhaps you want to help) and the information is well available (in wikipedia?), an implementation can go into the next minor release. |
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I am working through this source right now! |
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Also using http://www.safemotorist.com/Alabama/Roads/speed.aspx (and other pages on same website as source): Leaving out school zones, if mentioned, because school zones are posted. Perhaps an answer option like "there is no sign, but there is a school zone" or something could be added. Also, for some states, there are explicit speed limits for alleys (usually 15 mph). This is interesting, as is it a good use case for the From the wikipedia article and the other source, it is not always clear if the described limits are limits that are actually posted, or that the drivers are supposed to know (for the more complicated cases). It would be good if someone else would go over each item in the list and also review if the research is correct. It would be good if several people would confirm or refute my findings.
To be continued... |
westnordost
added
the
help wanted
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It's by the way such a shitty tagging scheme that one has to dwelve into each legislation of each country just to correctly tag "there is no speed limit sign", it's madness. |
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Well, with maxspeed=implicit one would anyway need to survey to check is it urban/rural/"residential streets and central business districts" - and that depends on location... But maxspeed:implicit=yes or something like that would probably make sense. |
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I'll definitely not be able to research, review and implement all this for the next bugfix update. So I am disabling this quest for US for now. |
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I now gave up going through that wikipedia article and that other source. This is all too ambigous and incomplete. This really requires to look into the actual law. |
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I found a better source. An official government source: https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/documents/summary_state_speed_laws_12th_edition_811769.pdf Based on that source, I started putting the legislation into a YAML-based configuration file to showcase a possible format in which the implicit speed limits could be defined. See below. However, I now recognize, that there are some open questions that need to be determined by the US community, I neither can nor want to simply define something here and it somewhat goes beyond the scope of this project to come up with something from scratch.
In any case, the re-enablement of maxspeed quests for the United States is blocked until either the US community came together and developed a set of rules on that or a tag like |
Or maybe tag Interstate status (of not equivalent to highway=motorway), with something like motorway=yes. |
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I've posted this ticket on the [US Slack](Sign up at https://osmus-slack.herokuapp.com/) community. For my state, Washington, the NHTSA has too many qualifiers that allow local government to change the maxspeed based on local conditions. For example, I take a scenic route on a state highway. It should be a 60MPH section, but because of the curves and limited shoulders, it's limited to 40MPH. @matkoniecz highway=motorway isn't limited to just interstates in a small number of states. |
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@cliffordsnow Yeah, but there are signs, right? |
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Yes - always signs - some well hidden just to increase city coffer through speeding tickets. |
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"highway=motorway" in the US is used for Interstate highways and for any other road built to Interstate standards. You don't need to worry about implicit speed limits for them: part of that standard is speed limit signs at every entrance, every change of speed limit (eg. going from rural to urban), and at intervals if it's been too long since the last sign. |
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For roads where there isn't an explicit number (so the user clicks "no sign"), you would treat it as a "hide for now" command. You don't want to eliminate the quest entirely because most of the untagged roads are still going to get useful data. You also don't want to mark it as a type because it's unclear. So the pragmatic solution is to prompt the user again when that portion of the quest is workable in the US. |
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Sorry, I do not want to do this. That would mean that the quest would pop up for any other surveyor again and again (and also if you clear the app's data), until someone just inputs "some" (i.e. 25 mph) data to silence the quest being displayed again and again. It's against the quest guidelines, so to say, and there are good reasons for these guidelines. It is in the interest of everybody to properly define the data needed for determining the implicit speed limits for the US, why not get down to it? It seems perhaps like a huge chunk of work, but I never said that the whole US needs to be defined. The quest can bit by bit be enabled by more and more states within the US. I already linked the best possible source for this information, it should be just up to the US community however to define how exactly the tags should look like, not up to me. |
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It sounds like either
https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2b.htm#section2B13_para08 Just to give a sense of scale, at least 325 jurisdictions in Ohio have received permission from the state to set a default speed limit lower than the statewide default. (In that state, local authorities don’t need permission to raise the default speed limit above the statewide default, so there’s an unknown number of those rules.) This is just one state – we could be talking about thousands of values, compared to the 311 or so While a comprehensive database of these speed limits would eventually be useful, it would be such a massive undertaking that data consumers are unlikely to be able to use Given the impracticality of |
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Absolutely. After discussion in the talk-us mailinglist, I think though that it is necessary to pitch it on a worldwide scale (talk-mailinglist, forums). |
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As part of revamping the Ohio map features guide on the OSM Wiki, I compiled this flowchart for determining the implicit, unless-otherwise-posted speed limit of a road in that state. (These are just the main points; the actual legal situation is much more complex.) Having done this exercise, now I completely understand why you stopped short of Ohio in #813 (comment). 😉 |
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Next exercise: put it into context of OSM. After all, the road classification (expressway, freeway,...) is already there, so the flowchart becomes a bit simpler
Am 30. April 2018 08:33:27 MESZ schrieb "Minh Nguyễn" <[email protected]>:
…As part of revamping the [Ohio map features
guide](https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ohio/Map_features) on the
OSM Wiki, I compiled [this
flowchart](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Speed_limits_in_Ohio.svg)
for determining the implicit, unless-otherwise-posted speed limit of a
road in that state. (These are just the main points; the actual legal
situation is much more complex.) Having done this exercise, now I
completely understand why you stopped short of Ohio in
#813 (comment).
😉
[<img
src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Speed_limits_in_Ohio.svg"
width="300">](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Speed_limits_in_Ohio.svg)
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By the way, I started this: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Default_speed_limits |
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@westnordost thanks for your work on that Wiki page! That may be the most comprehensive endeavor of the sort that I've seen. Out of curiosity, have you proposed (or are you aware of any other discussions re:) getting this into OSM directly somehow (as part of admin tags, perhaps)? |
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No, not yet. Other than time, two reasons:
To be able to say "look, it works already, just use this data and this library" is going to make it easier to argue for getting rid of the Are you by chance, interested in writing such a parser? ;-) |
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Wow, thanks for the quick reply! All points make sense, and I couldn't agree more on wanting to present a full solution. As a matter of fact, I had that exact thought (writing a parser) when I saw that the intent was to be machine readable. I guess you already answered my potential follow-up query as to whether or not one exists. Yes, I am interested in working on this. For a bit more context, I arrived here via a comment you made on valhalla/valhalla#1069 as I contribute to valhalla occasionally, host some instances, and can't resist a good data improvement challenge. (To answer the question you posed there, defaults are hard-coded based on the road tags. TL;DR here: https://valhalla.readthedocs.io/en/latest/speeds/). I considered building a Spatialite DB from the wiki page. Valhalla takes a similar approach for TZ data already, but it would still be great if the data could be tagged at the admin level in OSM. |
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Cool! I figured you came here from an interest in valhalla, I peeked at your profile :-)
What is TZ? Anyway, I don't really understand why it should be a Spatialite DB when it could be a simple (JSON) configuration file. |
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Sorry, TZ means timezone. My thought was that the current wiki page serves a similar purpose to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tz_database, even though it isn't quite as complete (yet; I think it could be though with more OSMers contributing though; hence my idea to formalize a way to tag admin areas). Like the TZ database, the wiki page references administrative areas, but does not describe their boundaries (by design; this is not a flaw necessarily). Valhalla and other tools need to answer the question "given coordinate (x, y), what time zone am I in." They currently do so by building a Spatialite DB from here: https://github.com/evansiroky/timezone-boundary-builder. A JSON file is probably the logical first step, but something combining OSM spatial data like this may be what applications like valhalla need. |
Since incidentally (haha ;-), the boundaries of default speed limits follow the boundaries of administrative areas, the only thing one needs is a mapping of country codes to administrative areas. A reverse geocoder (coordinate -> country code). Got you covered here, check this out: https://github.com/westnordost/countryboundaries It should be pretty easy to port this to C++ because the library itself is pretty small. Without test code, about 500 LOC. |
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Sweet; that's the idea ;) |
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I am actually a bit surprised that Valhalla doesn't have something like this yet. After all, doesn't it need to know for example where people drive left and where people drive right? For StreetComplete, I also got this information as a configuration file, here: |
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They do have that info in valhalla. The reason I suggested a Spatialite DB and/or shapefile was for broader usefulness in applications that don't. |
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Ah okay, well, countryboundaries or a port thereof solves this problem. |
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So, the research is complete, here https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Default_speed_limits However, what I had to realize during the research (first link), that the situation is so complex that the current I have not seen anyone else taking any initiative in consolidating the broken maxspeed tagging, so I don't see how the maxspeed quest could be enabled in the US. |
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Given the roughly 7000 possible implicit speed limits in Oklahoma, I think the best way it could be handled for Oklahoma is to ask what the speed limit is, and of the answer is "there is no sign" just set it to maxspeed:type=implicit. Anything with maxspeed:type=implicit could then ask if the implicit speed limit is known, and what that value is. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to have a resurvey task ask about once a hear "is the speed limit still __?" and if the answer is no, then ask what the new speed limit is. This could be once a week for things that are tagged construction=minor, and one more time (along with maxheight, maxweight, since these often change after construction) as a confirmation task after construction is complete. |
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I'd prefer |
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Oh, thanks for bringing that up. I do like that one better. |
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Was there any clear outcome out of this discussion though? |
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Main outcome for me is that I need to describe better why it would be useful. Right now I have already multiple proposals active and waiting for vote where people were less confused (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/healthcare%3Dsample_collection https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/remove_link_to_Wikidata_from_infoboxes are two in the queue). And I plan to have no more than one active vote at once - so in near future I will be not working on it. |
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@westnordost does your recent work on the topic of maxspeed (https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/westnordost/diary/399412) change the outcome of your findings in #813 (comment)? |
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no |
I noticed a new user adding maxspeed=US:urban. I've lived in many cities across the US, and have never seen a consistent maxspeed for anything, from residential to motorways (Interstate highways)
Can that feature be turned off for countries without established speed limits?
The changeset, https://openstreetmap.org/changeset/55834170 was by a new users that has probably never seen how streets are tagged.
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