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Is the assumption behind technique F87 still valid (meta issue) #3748
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I skimmed through all this, and it seems to me over time that the sentiment has tilted towards removing the technique (with the primary argument being that browser and AT support has improved). |
If anyone needs this, here's the two examples from F87 in CodePen. |
CSS and JavaScript have improved so far for more than a decade that they are relied upon and clearly "accessibility-supported technologies" per the following:
If agreement is reached that CSS & JavaScript are accessibility supported, then it creates a strong rationale for removing F87 (and/or rewording) because it is no longer a valid failure technique for 1.3.1. Otherwise, even though "techniques" in general are not considered normative, "Failure techniques" do have the effect of being "normative" because they "fail" the SC:
As currently worded, the only way to "pass" 1.3.1 would be to be forced to always provide a way all the time to support turning off CSS and JavaScript. |
A few thoughts:
From those points, I would argue that F87 is no longer a failure for 1.3.1. Since that is the only SC it relates to, it should probably be removed. As much as I think that the |
I think there may be a few oddities such as not being able to search for the pseudo content, not being able to select text, and the complexity of calculating the accessible name for tools that can't access the accessibility api - but on the whole this has been long supported by most assistive technology. I suppose it could be used in problematic ways that could complicate things for some users. |
@mraccess77 Johnathan, do you consider either of these "bugs" with the browsers?
First of all, thanks for pointing that out. first real issue I've heard, whether or not accessibility related. And, why can't the AT access the API? Is it more of a case where the AT doesn't access the API, but could, correct?
So a bug should be opened against the browsers (if not already) and against the AT's so that it does access the API. |
Maybe it's easy to access the content via CSS computed properties - I'm not certain - but to my knowledge on page AT JS tools can't access the accessibility api from JavaScript - but browser extensions can. The goal will be for this access - but I am not current on where that is. Do others know if any of these things are material issues? |
Firefox can search for it, Chrome can not |
I use Stylus extension in Chrome to apply CSS to many pages I use on a regular basis to improve readability of thin text, focus, indicators, and other content. |
@mraccess77 it seems to me the Stylus extension only changes themes and skins (e.g., font, size, bold), rather than reformatting or new content. The theme and skin changes are also widely available in a mobile OS, and those do improve accessibility a lot but are not well related to the F87. |
referencing PR #2800 as a reminder that F87 is on deck for removal once the PR is merged. |
There are already a few long-standing open issues against F87
There's also a lengthy (due to back and forth around "progressive enhancement is a failed idea" / "on the contrary, it's still very much relevant these days" / "back in my days, websites were built right, developers these days don't know what they're doing") discussion on w3c-wai-ig https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2024JanMar/0164.html that brought this back to the fore.
It would be good to have another closer look at F87 and hopefully address the outstanding open issues and remove any potential confusion.
For my own part, the one aspect of F87 that rubs me the wrong way is that it seems to primarily refer to the scenario where users override or suppress the site's CSS. However, this is arguably outside of the scope of what WCAG addresses (we've had similar discussions around Windows High Contrast Mode) - at which point is an author responsible for what happens when a user explicitly changes aspects of the CSS they define?
(Noting that if the idea with 1.3.1 is to also cover non-AT users that remove/override CSS, it would then potentially invalidate any AT-specific ways to address 1.3.1 such as the use of ARIA, unless the assumption is that those users would also somehow change their CSS to visibly expose ARIA attributes or similar...otherwise, we really need to define exactly which "programmatically determinable" parts are kosher and which aren't)
There's also been an underlying assumption, in similar discussions, around whether or not screen readers can read/expose CSS-generated content. Back in the days when F87 was penned, it was not the case. Nowadays though (barring browser/screen reader bugs), CSS-generated content is announced (and in fact causes opposite problems - when font-based icons are used that map to regular characters and are then read out by SRs, leading to confusing aural experiences).
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