Disable "Does this place allow smoking?" quest in the UK (GB)

[TurnrDev]

Smoking indoors is illegal in the UK, so this quest is rather spammy as all indoor places would automatically be "No".

[TurnrDev]

I'm happy to make this change, but would this be accepted?

[Helium314]

I had also asked for this (#3856), but the quest will not be disabled on a per-country base because it's disabled by default.

[matkoniecz]

It is possible in the future to disable the quest completely for certain countries where we know 100% that smoking is not allowed anywhere in public places.

#3856 (comment)

It can be disabled by default and in addition blocked in some specific countries.

indoor places would automatically be "No".

What about outdoor ones?

[mnalis]

My reasoning (as the quest author) was that it was already disabled by default for everybody, and that people who do not want to be spammed should/would not manually enable something that they know would spam them.

Just like if there are (for example) no special Kosher places in the country, people would not go manually enable Kosher quest (which is disabled by default) and than afterwards complain that Kosher quest (which they willingly and manually enabled) is spamming them. (I mean, it's not like once manually enabled they can never turn it off again! If you expended effort to turn it on against the default; you can also expend effort to turn it off once you find out you do not actually want it)

It can be disabled by default and in addition blocked in some specific countries.

Technically it can. But especially since the default already does what people expect (i.e. quest disabled meaning no-spamming), I find it bad idea to needlessly take the choice away from the people (e.g. forbid them from temporarily enabling the quest if they do find there is some rare specialized Kosher restaurant in some neighborhood - especially if people take the time to manually temporarily enable some quest because they feel that such rare answers are worth much more than if they were common)

---

TL;DR - Just don't go manually enabling quests you don't want to answer, eh?

[mnalis]

Most notably, according to UK taginfo it seems that in UK there is only about 52% of smoking=no answers tagged -- the rest are some variant of allowed smoking (mostly smoking=outside at about 43%)

According to that statistics, it seems to me that the smoking quest is quite useful in UK (as there is no value which is highly predominant, there is nothing that could be assumed "the default value" if smoking=* tag is not specified).

[mnalis]

I guess what could be done is reduce 4-answer smoking quest to 3-answer smoking quest in UK, but I do not see any sense in doing that (i.e. removing only Yes, everywhere => smoking=yes answer).

Assuming that research shows that 0.73% of smoking=yes tags existing in UK today are unupdated answers from times past, and not some kind of special-case-exceptions), it might technically be possible to code such special reduced-number-of-answers quests (if someone wants to spend their time doing that - I myself certainly don't).

That would however need special code (probably should be written in a way that can be updated to other countries and other quests), and would make this and other quests like this (kosher, halal, ...) more complex to read and to maintain.

But I do not see why one would like to introduce such specific code complications for no gain at all, as even if it were implemented, UK users who manually enable smoking quests, would still be shown exactly the same number of smoking quests, so the spam level would remain exactly the same for them, so the premise of this issue (i.e. that is would somehow solve smoking quest is rather spammy (in UK)) is incorrect.

The only microscopic gain would that I see is that the users then would be unable to choose one obviously incorrect answer (but we already kinda depend on the users answering quests correctly and truthfully -- for all quests !)

Unless I'm missing something huge, that does not seem like a good tradeoff to me.

[Helium314]

TL;DR - Just don't go manually enabling quests you don't want to answer, eh?

This is still the same absurd argumentation as before. You assume people are either not travelling at all, or should create per-country presets because of a single quest.
StreetComplete is already taking choice from people, e.g. by limiting the (disabled by default) cash quest to specific countries. Or by mostly not asking the (disabled by default) roof shape quest if roofs are usually flat in a country.

[TurnrDev]

TL;DR - Just don't go manually enabling quests you don't want to answer, eh?

This is still the same absurd argumentation as before. You assume people are either not travelling at all, or should create per-country presets because of a single quest. StreetComplete is already taking choice from people, e.g. by limiting the (disabled by default) cash quest to specific countries. Or by mostly not asking the (disabled by default) roof shape quest if roofs are usually flat in a country.

Well said, all the reasons to not disable this quest in the UK seem to counter the reasons to enable the cash quest in the UK #4517

[Helium314]

Actually I think there is no need to disable it entirely in UK, as the spammy part can be avoided with country-dependent element selection (only ask if outdoor_seating and outdoor_seating != no in UK).

[TurnrDev]

That does seem like a good solution! There's even a map of which countries ban smoking indoors, which we can use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans

[mnalis]

Actually I think there is no need to disable it entirely in UK, as the spammy part can be avoided with country-dependent element selection (only ask if outdoor_seating and outdoor_seating != no in UK).

Somewhat similar idea has been discussed before, e.g. #3865 (comment) where @peternewman noted specific exception:

In the UK at least it's quite common, particular outside nightclubs, to have a small fenced area where people can smoke without having to leave the area the club controls (and pay for a new ticket etc). This fenced area is often on the pavement and may not have seating, which might break your current logic here.

See some average to rubbish photos of the like here:
https://www.vice.com/en/article/z3xwa4/this-is-what-englands-nightclub-smoking-areas-looked-like-last-night

The linked Vice article also seems to indicate that night clubs at least do seem to have "separate nightclub smoking areas" (which is one of the answers offered by smoking quest too Only in separated areas). Or do you @TurnrDev have information that such smoking areas in pay-to-enter venues like nightclubs have been abolished since last year?

So I guess pay-to-enter amenities (like amenity ~ nightclub|stripclub) should still be asked regardless of outdoor_seating, even in UK.

But other than that, I guess "require outdoor_seating for many/most amenities in UK" @Helium314 idea might work. (Although I still think it would benefit by being asked about in some UK communication channel, as there might be more unforeseen exceptions which are obvious to some UK people, but not to me).

[mnalis]

That does seem like a good solution! There's even a map of which countries ban smoking indoors, which we can use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans

That wiki page in specific, however, I would heavily advise against. I'd much prefer someone on the ground who also
has knowledge / has researched the situation (like @TurnrDev in UK), or preferably few of them (e.g. after local
communication group discussion?) to open an issue.

For example, for my little part of the Europe I semi-regularly visit, there is at least 75% of incorrect data there (i.e. wikipedia mismatching reality). And even for parts that are factually correct, it is extremely hard to parse (i.e. it requires a huge amount of work to get from that wiki to a table of country|smoking_inside_allowed|smoking_outside_allowed values, even in cases where the exceptions do not make such a list impossible) .

Examples

For example, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina are flat out wrong. Some laws mentioned were repelled or amended so significantly that initial "very few can choose to make their amenity exempt to ban" became "almost everyone can (and majority do!) choose to be exempt to smoking ban". I am pretty sure that the same situation is in Serbia, although I haven't been there for few years, but that wikipedia page citations for it are even older (2010).

Slovenia, on the other hand, seems (at least) not blatantly incorrect in my limited experience. If correct however, it would still probably not help much with SC smoking quest though, as smoking=separated and smoking=outside answers would need to stay (i.e. only smoking=yes answer may be removed), even if Slovenia itself is mostly anti-smoking. There is no filter I can think of that could use that wikipedia article to limit the number or smoking quests asked there.
While I have not done extensive research by any means, it is my guess that many countries (even if it could be found which are not outdated or otherwise factually incorrect, which is quite a job in itself) would be in similar situations where the answer whether smoking may be possible at some place cannot be determined purely from OSM tags and wikipedia data.

[matkoniecz]

(only ask if outdoor_seating and outdoor_seating != no in UK).

That would require adding extra feature or splitting into separate quests, both are problematic.

[mnalis]

That would require adding extra feature or splitting into separate quests, both are problematic.

That is true, especially splitting the quest into two seems like a very bad idea to me.

But, extra feature / function like and isQuestInCountry(UK,SE) which could be used inside elementFilter might conceivably be used in other quests as needed (provided someone volunteers to write it and it is deemed acceptable / not kludgy, of course).

AFAIK, SC does not currently have anything like that, though (we only have operators and tags in elementFilter currently, right?). Is so, perhaps instead of a "function", a virtual tag like __QUEST_IS_IN_COUNTRY (which has value like UK or DE etc.) might be invented, and then normal operators might be used on it, e.g.:

elementFilter = """
  amenity ~ nightclub|stripclub 
  or amenity ~ restaurant|pub|bar and  (outdoor_seating != no or __QUEST_IS_IN_COUNTRY !~ UK|SE)
  and (!smoking or smoking older today -8 years) 
 [...]

I've move that discussion to separate feature request #4528, as it may be used in other places too, and not to stretch this issue in too much directions.

Although, it might lead to quite complex elementFilter values though (example above is just a small grossly oversimplified chunk of smoking quest filter, to illustrate the possible usage if something like that were to be implemented)

[mnalis]

Devoting some more time to investigate the wikipedia articles on the matter, I have a question for @TurnrDev (and other UK citizens). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_ban_in_England#Reaction_to_the_ban says:

In 2012, it was reported that "Five years after the introduction of the smoking ban in England, almost seven out of 10 licensees want the legislation amended to allow for separate smoking rooms in pubs".

Unfortunately, wikipedia article does not reference newer statistics since 2012. Do you have links to reference newer statistics? Because, if the information from 2012. citing 70% of pubs wanting smoking=separate has not changed drastically, it seems quite a good reason to retain the quest in England at least for smoking=outside and smoking=separate answers (i.e. making only the smoking=yes answer irrelevant).

[mnalis]

Summary of all options so far

(for those not wanting to read whole thread, so it can be linked to. I'll update it if I see other options become available, and/or people mention me to update it):

• allow to check for country of the quest in elementFilter so special filters could be implemented for UK. (it needs new functionality to be written as prerequisite, though: Allow for Country of current Quest to be visible and checked against in elementFilter #4528)

• split the Smoking quest into two quests, one for UK (and similar countries if later reported), and one for the rest of the world. (it has obvious maintenance increase implications, though, and opens untidy precedent for other quests to follow. And quest selector would confuse users too by having two smoking quests)

• do nothing, if "disabled by default" is deemed good enough not to be spammy to vast majority (it may make people who manually enable it and travel often and do not wish to use presets feel spammed, though. This is still my personal favorite, because):

  • there is about 43% of smoking=outside, so that answer at least should remain always
  • nightclubs and similar pay-to-enter venues seem to have smoking=separate, so that answer should remain there at least.
  • somewhat old (but still latest) wikipedia articles mention that ~70% of amenity=pub also wanted/had smoking=separate in England, so unless that changed drastically, quest with possible smoking=separate answer should be shown there too (even when they don't qualify for smoking=yes).
  • the quest is already "disabled by default", and I do not feel that many people who enabled it manually travel so frequently that creating/switching presets would undully overtax them (especially as other points seem to indicate that the quest should still be asked in many places in UK which seems to have banned only the smoking=yes answer) .
  • parties interested in change should go read not only this issue, but the whole of discussions in Smoking quest #3784, New quest: Smoking? #539, Smoking outside tuning #3865, Don't show smoking quest without outdoor seating in some countries #3856 and linked pages. Many things have been considered and tuned for and much research and other efforts expended to reach current solution. It is not perfect, but it is quite complex already and reasons are subtle. Updating the logic would need revisiting all of those concerns brought up previously, in order not to break it.
  • keeping the status quo requires no work at all 😄

• disable the smoking quest unconditionally in UK for all users, even if they want to enable this disabled_by_default quest (Statistics show that only about 52% of the OSM tags are smoking=no there, and all other allow some sort of smoking. This is the one I personally am heavily against, as it seems mapping smoking tag is quite relevant in UK despite the "no unrestricted smoking inside" ban )

[TurnrDev]

Under UK law, smoking=seperated is still prohibited, so I imagine any tags with that probably mean smoking=outside or are outdated information?

Also, do we implement smoking=isolated like the Wiki mentions or did we skip it for its low usage?

[TurnrDev]

In the meantime, I'll set up a challenge on MapRoulette to check the usage of anything other than smoking=no and smoking=outside in the UK

[Helium314]

How to only ask if there is outdoor seating: 25bb3f8
Just needed to change the quest to use OsmElementQuestType and copy some code from cycleway quest.
(this is untested, and will not compile due to QuestsModule being unchanged)

[edit: tested and works after adjusting QuestsModule]

[mnalis]

Under UK law, smoking=seperated is still prohibited, so I imagine any tags with that probably mean smoking=outside or are outdated information?

Also, do we implement smoking=isolated like the Wiki mentions or did we skip it for its low usage?

@TurnrDev It was initially implemented, but then removed due to feedback that the users would be confused by only slight differences between separated and isolated (i.e. as nothing in practice is really 100% isolated, even opening the doors of "fully isolated room" would allow some smoke to escape, so it is technically then all just various grades of separated and never really isolated - as you won't have dual-door airlock chamber with vacuum pumps in most nightclubs and pubs).

So it was deemed that isolated was just a specific (more rigid) case of separated and that the differences are quite subjective and gradual instead of a clear cut - so that Only in separated areas answer would support both (but always marking as more generic / less precise smoking=separated).
So you might treat both separated and isolated as the same thing - some area where smoking is allowed near some other area where smoking is not allowed, with wide range of possibility of smoke escape (0.1% to 99%) from one to the other.

So I guess when the mentioned example article https://www.vice.com/en/article/z3xwa4/this-is-what-englands-nightclub-smoking-areas-looked-like-last-night says:

Anyway, for reasons related to a virus, we've not had access to nightclub smoking areas for quite some time now – or, at least, not constant access. It's been sporadic at best

that "sporadic access to nightclub smoking areas due to virus" was taking more about smoking=isolated (which it seems still exist in UK - or at least did a year ago), and the pictures there are showing them at smoking=outside (even if there is no outside seating, just standing in case of nightclubs and similar amenities)

I've also asked for feedback about it at talk-gb mailing list.

But, as noted, SC does not distinguish between isolated and separated, so its Only in separated areas is intentionally designed to cover both cases.

[peternewman]

So I guess when the mentioned example article https://www.vice.com/en/article/z3xwa4/this-is-what-englands-nightclub-smoking-areas-looked-like-last-night says:

Anyway, for reasons related to a virus, we've not had access to nightclub smoking areas for quite some time now – or, at least, not constant access. It's been sporadic at best

that "sporadic access to nightclub smoking areas due to virus" was taking more about smoking=isolated (which it seems still exist in UK - or at least did a year ago), and the pictures there are showing them at smoking=outside (even if there is no outside seating, just standing in case of nightclubs and similar amenities)

This is probably getting a bit OT, but no, it doesn't mean that @mnalis . In the UK, for large parts of the Coronavirus pandemic, nightclubs were one of a small number of types of businesses which were legally banned from operating, so with no nightclubs, there was no access to their outside smoking areas either (or at least as far as I'm aware no-one bothered to gather at them when large gatherings weren't also illegal).

As talk-gb mentioned, in nearly all cases we should be mapping it's outside or no due to the law!

[mnalis]

Yes, talk-gb seems clear so far. What I think could be done to improve the smoking quest:

• remove all answers except smoking=no and smoking=outside when quest is in GB (and possibly other counties in the future that discuss the subject in their local communication channel and submit the request), in order to limit users from submitting illegal answers (and reduce their possible confusion).
  It would need code to access the country of the quest from SmokingAllowedForm context (hopefully not too complex for someone who is more intimate with SC code than me)

• when in GB, limit the showing of the smoking quest but only for amenities that are likely to not have "outside standing smoking areas" (not to be confused with "outside seating areas"!)

  So, in countries like UK, it would only show the smoking quest for amenity=fast_food only if it also has outdoor_seating=yes, but it would show the quest for amenity=nightclub even if it has outdoor_seating=no.

  It would need elementFilter parser support in readable and reusable form like suggested in Allow for Country of current Quest to be visible and checked against in elementFilter #4528. If something like that is implemented, I'd be happy to update smoking quest elementFilter specific rules to accomodate that.

• If option(s) above are implemented, we also need to update the test code in AddSmokingTest.kt to cover UK-alike situations as well as existing ones; with ample comments. Luckily, the country support for automated tests seems to already be available, so I could probably offer help there too.

[westnordost]

Uhm, a lot of discussion here, given this is a quest disabled by default. I do absolutely think that it is not worth investing much effort into this. I'd argue the same as @mnalis a bit further up in this thread - it's very similar as for the Kosher quest.

I've peeked at @Helium314 's implementation and while this might be ideal, it comes with a rat-tail of having to research the (changing) smoking legislation for all the countries as GB is clearly not the only country with (partial) smoking bans. After all, a specific GB implementation will solve this ticket, but unless researched for all, up to more than 200 tickets may theoretically follow. So that's why I wrote. Let's stop right here. It is just not worth the effort.

[TurnrDev]

Sounds good and fair

[wetneb]

I have started doing more research about this, to find out where it would make sense to enable the quest by default.
My methodology is as follows:

• first, identify which countries could likely benefit from having the quest enabled automatically based on three criteria
  • the number of uses of smoking= in the country and the proportion of those which are not no or outside
  • the proportion of SC users in the country which have used the smoking quest there in 2023 (with the heuristic of: if it's relevant information there, SC users are more likely to turn the quest on by themselves)
  • a quick glance at Wikipedia's list and https://www.tobaccocontrollaws.org/
• then, for the countries which I identify as potentially allowing significant indoor smoking, I send a message to an SC user who has contributed a lot in this country, to ask them if they think it would make sense to enable it by default there. Having used SC a lot in a country is (I think) a good heuristic to find people who are very familiar with the reality on the ground. I go for people who have used the quest themselves first, and fall back on other prominent SC users if the quest has not been used in the country at all in 2023.

Do you see any way to improve this process? I think this information could be used in other places than SC, for instance in other apps that let view or edit OSM data (to only show this field when relevant).

I am not sure if it is currently possible to mark a SC quest as being "enabled by default only in certain countries", still leaving the option to users to turn it on or off as they please. But intuitively it shouldn't be too hard to add.

With this approach, the options offered by the quest would not change depending on the country, which would keep the complexity of the quest manageable.

[westnordost]

There might be a misunderstanding here. It is not possible in StreetComplete to enable a quest by default only in certain countries. There are two mechanisms available:

• Disable a quest by default everywhere, i.e. user is able to turn it back on.
• Disable a quest completely for certain countries / only enable it in certain countries, i.e. users outside of the defined list of countries are not able to turn it back on again at all.

[wetneb]

Yes that's what I was suspecting (as mentioned above).
Would you consider having the smoking quest enabled by default if it were only available in white-listed countries where we have checked that it is useful?

[westnordost]

I am not sure... probably not... after all, e.g. the halal quest is also disabled by default but available in any country if the user really wants to survey that.
For smoking, e.g. in Germany, it is allowed only in a small fraction of establishments, still if someone wants to survey all that, the quest should not be not available to him at all.

Also, anyway, I guess oftentimes it is actually necessary to go inside to find out if smoking is allowed or not, and that is already one reason why the quest is disabled by default.