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Add ref for power=substation #4106

Closed
5 of 6 tasks
deevroman opened this issue Jun 13, 2022 · 21 comments
Closed
5 of 6 tasks

Add ref for power=substation #4106

deevroman opened this issue Jun 13, 2022 · 21 comments
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wontfix idea rejected because it is out of scope or because required work is not matching expected benefits

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@deevroman
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deevroman commented Jun 13, 2022

General

Affected tag(s) to be modified/added: ref power=substation
Question asked: What is the number of this substation?

Yard substations usually always have a number that you can see on it.

Examples

Wiki example:
ref=160
Service_building


ref=4939
1556547777_5


ref=329
scale_2400


ref=7595
phone=5433405
voltage=6000

IMG_20220613_134716_222

Estimating the number of objects using Russia as an example
area(id:3600060189)->.b;
(
  way["power"="substation"][building](area.b);
);
out body;
>;
out skel qt;

30916 ways

area(id:3600060189)->.b;
(
  way["power"="substation"][building][!ref][!name](area.b);
);
out body;
>;
out skel qt;

18707 ways

60% of such substations are suitable for the quest

Checklist

Checklist for quest suggestions (see guidelines):

  • 🚧 To be added tag is established and has a useful purpose
    There are renders that show these numbers. https://frexosm.ru/power https://openinframap.org (I've seen a few more global renders, but I can't remember the links yet)
  • 🤔 Any answer the user can give must have an equivalent tagging (Quest should not reappear to other users when solved by one)
    While I know what to answer if the plaque is missing or damaged. This can happen with any quest.
  • 🐿️ Easily answerable by everyone from the outside but a survey is necessary
  • 💤 Not an overwhelming percentage of quests have the same answer (No spam)
  • 🕓 Applies to a reasonable number of map data (Worth the effort)
    Almost all yards have their own unique number
  • ⚠️ Safety
  1. It is necessary to ask only power=substation + building=* since the transformers are hidden inside the building.
  2. A warning should be issued. Something like:
    "⚠️ Don't come close! The number must be clearly visible from outside."
  3. Turn off the default quest.

p.s. So we already have a dangerous quest about measuring the width of the road, which is asked for highway=secondary :)

Ideas for implementation

Element selection:
power=substation + building=* without ref or name

Perhaps you can also select power=substaion + man_made=street_cabinet

There may be some tags to skip (substaion=? location=? voltage>=10000)

Metadata needed:
The number plate scheme should work in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus... and other ex-USSR countries.

Proposed UI:

Simple number entry field

@deevroman deevroman changed the title Add ref for power=substation Add ref for power=substation Jun 13, 2022
@mcliquid
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I can at least contribute for Germany and Austria that there is no ref number for transformer houses existing / visible on a sign.

@legofahrrad
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I like the idea :)
But there should be an option to tag explicitly that there is no ref number. What about noref=yes or even better ref:signed=no?

@westnordost
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The issue I see (with the examples shown) is that there are many numbers on such a building. It is unclear which one should be entered as a ref, to me at least. And I am a layman like any other user of he app. E.g. the last example, the ref could have been B-1 too no?

@westnordost westnordost added the feedback required more info is needed, issue will be likely closed if it is not provided label Jun 14, 2022
@westnordost
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Also, it would require a lot of research about in which region(s) such a reference number is usually publicly visible at all. All that sounds a bit too much when compared with the useful purpose this information may serve. (E.g. just so that it can be displayed on a map is a little thin. The question is, why would someone want to look for the ref on a map?)

@HolgerJeromin
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We need to be explicit that ref does not need to be a number. Here this is often a streetname or streetname+housenumber (which still is a ref and not addr:*)
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4706172075
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8935404811

@legofahrrad
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Some photos from Bremen, Germany:
The ref number can easily be seen from the outside and thus the question for ref number is easy to answer.


771
building=service
power=substation
substation=minor_distribution
ref=771


662
power=substation
substation=minor_distribution
ref=662


5102_03

power=substation
substation=minor_distribution
ref=5102


So, all in all the ref numbers are easy to read. Probably this is also a local thing, so it depends on the city how the ref numbers are set and if they are signed at all.

@peternewman
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On at least one UK substation, the most obvious "ref" is just the OS grid reference (that's grid as in squares, not power grid). So it's just telling you exactly where it is, and at the same time uniquely identifying it. I'd need to check a few others to see if that's universally true.

@Cj-Malone
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On at least one UK substation, the most obvious "ref" is just the OS grid reference (that's grid as in squares, not power grid). So it's just telling you exactly where it is, and at the same time uniquely identifying it. I'd need to check a few others to see if that's universally true.

I think it's a company thing. SSE near me have clear names and refs, GTC in Scotland seem to also have names and refs. This one should probably be a name, not ref.

I wounder if there would be any point asking for an operator, or if that's just a UK thing.

@davidpnewton
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Western Power Distribution also show clear names and references for their substations in the UK.

@SK53
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SK53 commented Jul 27, 2022

@davidpnewton In the old EM Electricity region older substations will have two refs (usually separated by a slash). I checked with a friend who has worked on the distribution network for 40 years and one is the older East Midlands reference format 99A999 with the second being the 6 digit Western Power one. Examples : 52D0061/880820 , 52D1521/880309. I of course have numerous examples photographed too.

@davidpnewton
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@SK53 now that explains something. Around here they're 42D #### rather than 52D ####. I've seen instances where both that style of reference and the 6 digit one which corresponds to the Western Power Distribution ones found in the open data release they've made are present. I've also found ones where only a 4 digit reference is actually visible on the substation itself. I'd guess that each of those should really be prefixed by 42D but that for whatever reason that wasn't put on the plate on the substation.

The lodge near 52D0061/880820 has always bemused me. Obviously at one point it was right in place and context as the grand entrance to Wollaton Park, but it just looks so utterly anachronistic now being separated from the remains of the grounds by such a distance and indeed the ring road. Haven't been to the area for a while now, but I know Nottingham well.

@SK53
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SK53 commented Jul 28, 2022

@davidpnewton the 42D & 52D parts are indeed area codes of some form, so I think your surmise is correct. Presumably there's enough documentation only using the old codes to make it useful for maintenance work (my informant said that he's still got GPS co-ordinates of many pole-mounted substations on his Satnav).

Off-topic on the lodge, but read the historical note here. It explains much of the incongruity.

@mccartney
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why would someone want to look for the ref on a map?

OSINT and geo-localization?

@SK53
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SK53 commented Aug 25, 2022

why would someone want to look for the ref on a map?

OSINT and geo-localization?

fault reporting, ...
but also just "this is OSM & that's what we do"

@deevroman
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deevroman commented Sep 12, 2022

I'll try to explain why the last picture is still not very complicated.

"РТП" is an abbreviation of "Распределительная Трансформаторная Подстанция" (Distribution Transformer Substation) in Russian. For a Russian speaker, "ТП" is an understandable abbreviation. And seeing the number after such a reduction, it is clear that we are talking about the substation number. Other abbreviations are also understandable for a Russian speaker: the phone number (by prefixes тел..=tel., voltage - 6 kV) "B-1" is a little more complicated, but seeing the РТП, you no longer need to look for other numbers.

But do not think that only abbreviations are used. Sometimes № is explicitly indicated, and sometimes it is not only inscriptions in paint, but also special plates.

example

IMG_20220912_232533_952

It is clear that there will be difficult situations, but this quest is no more difficult than entering the address of the house.


And here I smoothly lead to the application of information about the ref

Substation buildings in courtyards usually have the same address as houses + a suffix with a letter + a suffix with a subbuilding number. And it is quite difficult to write this address in osm and use it for someone. Therefore, the bases of electricians rely on the numbers of substations. Moreover, such a ref is more unique than an address, because it is unique within the service operator, which can serve several cities. Basically it's like a quest with fire hydrants, but the hydrants don't even have an address. #3059

Also, we should select only those countries/operators that use only numeric refs. (They tried to tell me about such an operator in the French matrix chat https://matrix.to/#/!fdQuIPZzzMzrCiZONx:matrix.org/$dzoKGH2g0BX1RU1z-f3CqEu-Po1haAEnLM7gf_OSnrM?via=matrix.org&via=tchncs.de&via=tedomum.net) But it seems there are not many such countries:(

p.s. Do not hesitate to clarify my wording, perhaps I have translated something incorrectly or do not know many regional peculiarities.

@wvanderp
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In the Netherlands most substation have a ref on them

See:

PXL_20220827_150243954.jpg

PXL_20220823_155726049.jpg

PXL_20220717_122304641.jpg

@matkoniecz
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Looking at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Distribution_substations_in_Russia and given

"РТП" is an abbreviation of "Распределительная Трансформаторная Подстанция" (Distribution Transformer Substation) in Russian. For a Russian speaker, "ТП" is an understandable abbreviation. And seeing the number after such a reduction, it is clear that we are talking about the substation number. Other abbreviations are also understandable for a Russian speaker: the phone number (by prefixes тел..=tel., voltage - 6 kV) "B-1" is a little more complicated, but seeing the РТП, you no longer need to look for other numbers.

it seems believable to me that it is mappable, though there is a real risk that reality turns out differently and quest may need to be removed.

Though I am not fully sure about actual use of this data. But

Therefore, the bases of electricians rely on the numbers of substations. Moreover, such a ref is more unique than an address, because it is unique within the service operator, which can serve several cities. Basically it's like a quest with fire hydrants, but the hydrants don't even have an address.

is not so outlandish use, I heard about companies maintaining hydrants using OSM data to locate hydrants because official data is incomplete/missing.

Though not fully convinced.

@matkoniecz matkoniecz removed the feedback required more info is needed, issue will be likely closed if it is not provided label Apr 6, 2023
@matkoniecz
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Removing feedback request as it was provided but still I am unsure here. I am undecided how to judge whether "РТП" is common enough abbreviation and how likely is that people will enter not ref but some other code and how useful this data is.

Overall I would lean toward rejecting, but not really sure.

@mccartney
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Is it an option to add the quest and make it disabled by default?

@westnordost
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westnordost commented Aug 14, 2024

I am going to reject this quest suggestion because it would be difficult to ascertain for users whether "some number" / "some letters" on a substation would be the ref, or something else. There could also be several numbers on it, or none.
Also, the useful purpose of this information is somewhat unclear.

@westnordost westnordost closed this as not planned Won't fix, can't repro, duplicate, stale Aug 14, 2024
@riQQ riQQ added the wontfix idea rejected because it is out of scope or because required work is not matching expected benefits label Dec 3, 2024
@mnalis
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mnalis commented Dec 3, 2024

FYI, this quest (in even more generic form) has since been added to SCEE (see Helium314#531)

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