diff --git a/src/packages/frontend/messages/list.tsx b/src/packages/frontend/messages/list.tsx
index 1b7b3f59f8..9d6415fe30 100644
--- a/src/packages/frontend/messages/list.tsx
+++ b/src/packages/frontend/messages/list.tsx
@@ -6,8 +6,14 @@ import Message from "./message";
 import { Icon } from "@cocalc/frontend/components/icon";
 import { redux } from "@cocalc/frontend/app-framework";
 import dayjs from "dayjs";
-import { expandToThreads, getFilteredMessages, isNullDate } from "./util";
-import { isFolder } from "./types";
+import {
+  expandToThreads,
+  getFilteredMessages,
+  isNullDate,
+  isThreadRead,
+  isInFolderThreaded,
+} from "./util";
+import { isFolder, Folder } from "./types";
 
 export default function MessagesList({ messages, threads, filter }) {
   const [showThread, setShowThread] = useState<number | null>(null);
@@ -18,16 +24,21 @@ export default function MessagesList({ messages, threads, filter }) {
     null,
   );
 
-  const filteredMessages: MessageType[] = useMemo(() => {
-    if (messages == null || threads == null || filter == "message-compose") {
-      return [];
-    }
+  const folder: Folder = useMemo(() => {
     const folder = filter.split("-")[1];
     if (!isFolder(folder)) {
+      // BUG -- should never happen!
+      return "inbox" as Folder;
+    }
+    return folder;
+  }, [filter]);
+
+  const filteredMessages: MessageType[] = useMemo(() => {
+    if (messages == null || threads == null) {
       return [];
     }
     return getFilteredMessages({ messages, threads, folder });
-  }, [messages, threads, filter]);
+  }, [messages, threads, folder]);
 
   useEffect(() => {
     if (checkedMessageIds.size > 0) {
@@ -49,7 +60,7 @@ export default function MessagesList({ messages, threads, filter }) {
   useEffect(() => {
     setCheckedMessageIds(new Set());
     setShowThread(null);
-  }, [filter]);
+  }, [folder]);
 
   if (messages == null) {
     return <Spin />;
@@ -78,10 +89,10 @@ export default function MessagesList({ messages, threads, filter }) {
             />
             Back
           </Button>
-          {filter != "messages-sent" && (
+          {folder != "sent" && (
             <Actions
               threads={threads}
-              filter={filter}
+              folder={folder}
               checkedMessageIds={new Set([showThread])}
               messages={messages}
               setShowThread={setShowThread}
@@ -119,7 +130,7 @@ export default function MessagesList({ messages, threads, filter }) {
           threads={threads}
           showThread
           setShowThread={setShowThread}
-          filter={filter}
+          folder={folder}
           style={{ paddingLeft: "12px" }}
         />
       </>
@@ -128,8 +139,8 @@ export default function MessagesList({ messages, threads, filter }) {
 
   return (
     <>
-      {filter == "messages-sent" && <div style={{ height: "37px" }} />}
-      {filter != "messages-sent" && (
+      {folder == "sent" && <div style={{ height: "37px" }} />}
+      {folder != "sent" && (
         <Flex style={{ minHeight: "37px" }}>
           <Icon
             onClick={() => {
@@ -155,9 +166,9 @@ export default function MessagesList({ messages, threads, filter }) {
               marginRight: "30px",
             }}
           />
-          {checkedMessageIds.size > 0 && filter != "messages-sent" && (
+          {checkedMessageIds.size > 0 && (
             <Actions
-              filter={filter}
+              folder={folder}
               checkedMessageIds={checkedMessageIds}
               messages={messages}
               setShowThread={setShowThread}
@@ -176,7 +187,7 @@ export default function MessagesList({ messages, threads, filter }) {
               threads={threads}
               checked={checkedMessageIds.has(message.id)}
               setChecked={
-                filter != "messages-sent"
+                folder != "sent"
                   ? ({ checked, shiftKey }) => {
                       if (shiftKey && mostRecentChecked != null) {
                         // set the range of id's between this message and the most recent one
@@ -210,7 +221,7 @@ export default function MessagesList({ messages, threads, filter }) {
               message={message}
               showThread={showThread}
               setShowThread={setShowThread}
-              filter={filter}
+              folder={folder}
             />
           </List.Item>
         )}
@@ -219,8 +230,9 @@ export default function MessagesList({ messages, threads, filter }) {
   );
 }
 
+// These are actions for an entire THREAD in all cases.
 function Actions({
-  filter,
+  folder,
   checkedMessageIds,
   messages,
   setShowThread,
@@ -230,7 +242,7 @@ function Actions({
     <Space wrap>
       <Button
         type="text"
-        disabled={filter != "messages-inbox"}
+        disabled={folder != "inbox"}
         onClick={() => {
           redux.getActions("messages").mark({
             ids: expandToThreads({
@@ -245,7 +257,7 @@ function Actions({
       >
         <Icon name="download" /> Archive
       </Button>
-      {filter != "messages-trash" && (
+      {folder != "trash" && (
         <Button
           type="text"
           onClick={() => {
@@ -263,7 +275,7 @@ function Actions({
           <Icon name="trash" /> Delete
         </Button>
       )}
-      {filter == "messages-trash" && (
+      {folder == "trash" && (
         <Button
           danger
           type="text"
@@ -283,10 +295,12 @@ function Actions({
           <Icon name="trash" /> Delete Forever
         </Button>
       )}
-      {filter != "messages-trash" && (
+      {folder != "trash" && (
         <Button
           type="text"
-          disabled={!hasUnread({ checkedMessageIds, messages })}
+          disabled={
+            !hasUnread({ checkedMessageIds, messages, threads, folder })
+          }
           onClick={() => {
             redux.getActions("messages").mark({
               ids: expandToThreads({
@@ -301,10 +315,10 @@ function Actions({
           <Icon name="eye" /> Read
         </Button>
       )}
-      {filter != "messages-trash" && (
+      {folder != "trash" && (
         <Button
           type="text"
-          disabled={!hasRead({ checkedMessageIds, messages })}
+          disabled={!hasRead({ checkedMessageIds, messages, threads, folder })}
           onClick={() => {
             redux.getActions("messages").mark({
               ids: expandToThreads({
@@ -323,9 +337,10 @@ function Actions({
         type="text"
         disabled={
           !enableMoveToInbox({
-            filter,
+            folder,
             checkedMessageIds,
             messages,
+            threads,
           })
         }
         onClick={() => {
@@ -348,15 +363,18 @@ function Actions({
   );
 }
 
-function enableMoveToInbox({ filter, checkedMessageIds, messages }) {
-  if (filter == "messages-inbox" || filter == "messages-sent") {
+function enableMoveToInbox({ folder, checkedMessageIds, messages, threads }) {
+  if (folder == "inbox" || folder == "sent") {
     return false;
   }
-  if (filter == "messages-all" && !hasSaved({ checkedMessageIds, messages })) {
+  if (
+    folder == "all" &&
+    everyMessageIsInInbox({ checkedMessageIds, messages, threads })
+  ) {
     // every message is already in the inbox
     return false;
   }
-  if (filter == "messages-trash") {
+  if (folder == "trash") {
     return true;
   }
   return true;
@@ -366,33 +384,37 @@ function getIn({ id, messages, field }) {
   return messages.getIn([id, field]);
 }
 
-function hasUnread({ checkedMessageIds, messages }) {
+function hasUnread({ checkedMessageIds, messages, threads, folder }) {
   for (const id of checkedMessageIds) {
-    const read = getIn({ id, field: "read", messages });
-    if (isNullDate(read)) {
+    if (!isThreadRead({ threads, folder, message: messages.get(id).toJS() })) {
       return true;
     }
   }
   return false;
 }
 
-function hasRead({ checkedMessageIds, messages }) {
+function hasRead({ checkedMessageIds, messages, threads, folder }) {
   for (const id of checkedMessageIds) {
-    const read = getIn({ id, field: "read", messages });
-    if (!isNullDate(read)) {
+    if (isThreadRead({ threads, folder, message: messages.get(id).toJS() })) {
       return true;
     }
   }
   return false;
 }
 
-function hasSaved({ checkedMessageIds, messages }) {
+function everyMessageIsInInbox({ checkedMessageIds, messages, threads }) {
   for (const id of checkedMessageIds) {
-    if (getIn({ id, field: "saved", messages })) {
-      return true;
+    if (
+      !isInFolderThreaded({
+        threads,
+        message: messages.get(id),
+        folder: "inbox",
+      })
+    ) {
+      return false;
     }
   }
-  return false;
+  return true;
 }
 
 function hasNotExpire({ checkedMessageIds, messages }) {
diff --git a/src/packages/frontend/messages/message.tsx b/src/packages/frontend/messages/message.tsx
index d9df1d107c..2a69e76318 100644
--- a/src/packages/frontend/messages/message.tsx
+++ b/src/packages/frontend/messages/message.tsx
@@ -5,21 +5,29 @@ import { webapp_client } from "@cocalc/frontend/webapp-client";
 import { TimeAgo } from "@cocalc/frontend/components/time-ago";
 import StaticMarkdown from "@cocalc/frontend/editors/slate/static-markdown";
 import ReplyButton from "./reply-button";
-import { isNullDate, isFromMe, isToMe, isRead } from "./util";
+import {
+  isNullDate,
+  isFromMe,
+  isToMe,
+  isThreadRead,
+  isRead,
+  isInFolderThreaded,
+} from "./util";
 import Thread, { ThreadCount } from "./thread";
-import type { iThreads } from "./types";
+import type { iThreads, Folder } from "./types";
 import User from "./user";
 import { Icon } from "@cocalc/frontend/components/icon";
+import { fromJS } from "immutable";
 
 const LEFT_OFFSET = "46px";
 
 interface Props {
+  message: MessageType;
+  folder: Folder;
   checked?: boolean;
   setChecked?: (e: { checked: boolean; shiftKey: boolean }) => void;
-  message: MessageType;
   showThread?;
   setShowThread?;
-  filter?;
   style?;
   threads?: iThreads;
   inThread?: boolean;
@@ -38,12 +46,14 @@ function MessageInList({
   setChecked,
   message,
   setShowThread,
-  filter,
+  folder,
   style,
   threads,
   inThread,
 }: Props) {
-  const read = isRead(message);
+  const read = inThread
+    ? isRead({ message, folder })
+    : isThreadRead({ message, threads, folder });
 
   const { id, type } = getDisplayedUser({ message, inThread });
 
@@ -59,7 +69,7 @@ function MessageInList({
 
   const show = setShowThread
     ? () => {
-        if (!isRead(message)) {
+        if (!isRead({ message, folder })) {
           redux.getActions("messages").mark({
             id: message.id,
             read: webapp_client.server_time(),
@@ -100,7 +110,7 @@ function MessageInList({
           marginRight: "10px",
         }}
       >
-        {filter == "messages-sent" && !inThread && (
+        {folder == "sent" && !inThread && (
           <span style={{ marginRight: "5px" }}>To: </span>
         )}
         {user}
@@ -119,22 +129,21 @@ function MessageInList({
           marginRight: "10px",
         }}
       >
-        {getTag(message, filter)}
+        {!inThread && folder != 'inbox' && getTag({ message, threads })}
         {read ? message.subject : <b>{message.subject}</b>}
       </div>
       <div onClick={(e) => e.stopPropagation()}>
         <Tooltip
           placement="left"
           title={
-            isRead(message) ? (
+            isRead({ message, folder }) ? (
               <>
-                <User id={message.to_id} type={message.to_type} /> read this
-                message <TimeAgo date={message.read} />
+                <User id={message.to_id} type={message.to_type} /> read{" "}
+                <TimeAgo date={message.read} />
               </>
             ) : (
               <>
                 <User id={message.to_id} type={message.to_type} /> has not read
-                this message
               </>
             )
           }
@@ -174,20 +183,18 @@ export function MessageInThread(props: InThreadProps) {
   if (props.showBody) {
     return <MessageFull {...props} setShowThread={setShowThread} inThread />;
   } else {
-    return (
-      <MessageInList {...props} setShowThread={setShowThread} inThread />
-    );
+    return <MessageInList {...props} setShowThread={setShowThread} inThread />;
   }
 }
 
 function MessageFull({
   message,
-  filter,
+  folder,
   threads,
   inThread,
   setShowThread,
 }: Props) {
-  const read = isRead(message);
+  const read = isRead({ message, folder });
 
   const user = (
     <User
@@ -217,7 +224,7 @@ function MessageFull({
         <Thread
           thread_id={message.thread_id}
           threads={threads}
-          filter={filter}
+          folder={folder}
           style={{ marginBottom: "10px" }}
         />
       )}
@@ -263,32 +270,14 @@ function MessageFull({
             justifyContent: "center",
           }}
         >
-          <Tooltip
-            placement="left"
-            title={
-              isRead(message) ? (
-                <>
-                  <User id={message.to_id} type={message.to_type} /> read this
-                  message <TimeAgo date={message.read} />
-                </>
-              ) : (
-                <>
-                  <User id={message.to_id} type={message.to_type} /> has not
-                  read this message
-                </>
-              )
-            }
-          >
-            &nbsp;
-            <TimeAgo
-              date={message.created}
-              style={{
-                whiteSpace: "pre",
-                textAlign: "right",
-                fontWeight: read ? undefined : "bold",
-              }}
-            />
-          </Tooltip>
+          <TimeAgo
+            date={message.created}
+            style={{
+              whiteSpace: "pre",
+              textAlign: "right",
+              fontWeight: read ? undefined : "bold",
+            }}
+          />
         </div>
       </Flex>
       <div style={{ marginTop: "-20px" }}>
@@ -306,6 +295,13 @@ function MessageFull({
             <>
               to <User id={message.to_id} type={message.to_type} />
             </>
+          )}{" "}
+          {isRead({ message, folder }) ? (
+            <>
+              (read <TimeAgo date={message.read} />)
+            </>
+          ) : (
+            <>(has not read)</>
           )}
         </div>
       </div>
@@ -317,27 +313,27 @@ function MessageFull({
       >
         <StaticMarkdown value={message.body} />
         <div style={{ height: "30px" }} />
-        {!inThread &&
-          message.from_type == "account" &&
-          filter != "messages-sent" && (
-            <div>
-              <ReplyButton size="large" replyTo={message} />
-            </div>
-          )}
+        {!inThread && message.from_type == "account" && folder != "sent" && (
+          <div>
+            <ReplyButton size="large" replyTo={message} />
+          </div>
+        )}
       </div>
     </div>
   );
 }
 
-function getTag(message, filter) {
+function getTag({ message, threads }) {
   if (
-    filter != "messages-sent" &&
-    filter != "messages-inbox" &&
-    !message.saved &&
-    !message.deleted
+    isInFolderThreaded({
+      message: fromJS(message),
+      threads,
+      folder: "inbox",
+    })
   ) {
     return <Tag color="green">Inbox</Tag>;
   }
+
   if (!isNullDate(message.expire)) {
     return (
       <Tooltip
diff --git a/src/packages/frontend/messages/thread.tsx b/src/packages/frontend/messages/thread.tsx
index 4746b53a6c..448b6aa369 100644
--- a/src/packages/frontend/messages/thread.tsx
+++ b/src/packages/frontend/messages/thread.tsx
@@ -1,4 +1,4 @@
-import type { iThreads } from "./types";
+import type { iThreads, Folder } from "./types";
 import { List } from "antd";
 import { MessageInThread } from "./message";
 import type { Message as MessageType } from "@cocalc/util/db-schema/messages";
@@ -7,11 +7,11 @@ import { useState } from "react";
 interface Props {
   thread_id?: number;
   threads: iThreads;
-  filter?;
+  folder: Folder;
   style?;
 }
 
-export default function Thread({ thread_id, threads, filter, style }: Props) {
+export default function Thread({ thread_id, threads, folder, style }: Props) {
   const [expanded, setExpanded] = useState<Set<number>>(new Set());
 
   if (thread_id == null) {
@@ -33,7 +33,7 @@ export default function Thread({ thread_id, threads, filter, style }: Props) {
         <List.Item>
           <MessageInThread
             message={message}
-            filter={filter}
+            folder={folder}
             showBody={expanded.has(message.id)}
             setShowBody={(add) => {
               if (add) {
@@ -50,7 +50,13 @@ export default function Thread({ thread_id, threads, filter, style }: Props) {
   );
 }
 
-export function ThreadCount({ thread_id, threads }: Props) {
+export function ThreadCount({
+  thread_id,
+  threads,
+}: {
+  thread_id?: number;
+  threads: iThreads;
+}) {
   if (thread_id == null) {
     return null;
   }
diff --git a/src/packages/frontend/messages/util.ts b/src/packages/frontend/messages/util.ts
index 385691eaef..d43fb5c4d1 100644
--- a/src/packages/frontend/messages/util.ts
+++ b/src/packages/frontend/messages/util.ts
@@ -88,8 +88,60 @@ function isInFolderNotThreaded({
   }
 }
 
-export function isRead(message: Message) {
-  return !isNullDate(message.read);
+// If the folder is anything but "sent", then the
+// message is read if *we* have read it, where any
+// message we have sent we have automatically read, and any
+// message we receive is read if we mark it read.
+// (except sending message to ourselves)
+// If the folder is sent then things are switched: we
+// care if the other person read it -- if they sent it,
+// then of course they read it.  If we sent it, then they
+// read it if it is marked read.
+// Also note that we message.read can bew new Date(0) rather
+// than null!
+export function isRead({
+  message,
+  folder,
+}: {
+  message: Message;
+  folder: Folder;
+}) {
+  if (folder != "sent") {
+    if (isFromMe(message)) {
+      if (isToMe(message)) {
+        return !isNullDate(message.read);
+      }
+      return true;
+    }
+    return !isNullDate(message.read);
+  } else {
+    if (isFromMe(message)) {
+      return !isNullDate(message.read);
+    }
+    return true;
+  }
+}
+
+// true if every single message in the thread is read
+export function isThreadRead({
+  message,
+  threads,
+  folder,
+}: {
+  message: Message;
+  folder: Folder;
+  threads?: iThreads;
+}) {
+  const thread_id = message.thread_id;
+  if (threads == null || thread_id == null) {
+    return isRead({ message, folder });
+  }
+  for (const message1 of threads.get(thread_id) ?? []) {
+    if (!isRead({ message: message1.toJS(), folder })) {
+      return false;
+    }
+  }
+  return true;
 }
 
 export function isNullDate(date: Date | number | undefined | null): boolean {