Multiple Payment Method For One Offer (Cloning offers)

[HardenedSteel]

15% security deposit limits traders to have maximum 6 offers at same time (100/15 = 6.66) otherwise makers have to lower limits which is resulting in very low liquidity.

Similar proposals for Bisq:
bisq-network/proposals#402
bisq-network/proposals#288

https://bisq.wiki/Cloning_an_offer

[monerobull]

I don't like this for 3 reasons:

1. Essentially makes offers fractionally reserved and the orderbook stats massively inflated.
2. Leads to more failed offers and frustration on the taker side (long roundtrip times mean it will happen that someone takes a fractional reserved offer that is already taken by someone else. The bigger haveno gets, the more this will happen, especially if only a handful of makers fill most of the orderbook.)
3. Looks like this is a massive change to the underlying protocol, which already isn't that stable right now.

[boldsuck]

2. Leads to more failed offers and frustration on the taker side (long roundtrip times mean it will happen that someone takes a fractional reserved offer that is already taken by someone else. The bigger haveno gets, the more this will happen, especially if only a handful of makers fill most of the orderbook.)

Yes, I've had this happen a few times in the current trade protocol on bisq: I want to accept an offer and it's already been taken by someone else.

[HardenedSteel]

fractionally reserved

what? no, wallets are non-custodial.

orderbook stats

Can be adjusted.

Leads to more failed offers

Probably can be fixed.

frustration on the taker side

both taker and maker already frustrated from liquidity issues on both Haveno and Bisq

[monerobull]

fractionally reserved

The offers themselves are factually fractionally reserved. If I put 10 XMR of orders on the books but in reality there is only 1 XMR up for trade, that is fractionally reserved.

Leads to more failed offers - Probably can be fixed.

Slow roundtrip is a tor limitation, no fixing that. This system worked on localmonero because they have a centralized server and can instantly close offers once one is taken, doesn't work for Haveno.

both taker and maker already frustrated from liquidity issues on both Haveno and Bisq

bisq already implements fractional reserved offers and it didn't bring them a whole lot more liquidity. It was claimed paypal would massively increase haveno volume, yet i have seen barely any paypal trades so far.

[boldsuck]

both taker and maker already frustrated from liquidity issues on both Haveno and Bisq

It depends on the currency, (bisq trading history) most: XMR, EUR, USD, BRL
January 1, 2024 - today = 1.223,743 BTC or 72.966.613 USD
I think that's not a small amount considering that this is a community project.

[HardenedSteel]

If I put 10 XMR of orders on the books but in reality there is only 1 XMR up for trade

as i said order book stats can be adjusted and make it transparent.

This system worked on localmonero because they have a centralized server and can instantly close offers once one is taken, doesn't work for Haveno.

It shouldn't mean we should give up and use CEX.

bisq already implements fractional reserved offers

where? and if your understanding of fractional reserved is this, then its good to have it

[boldsuck]

where? and if your understanding of fractional reserved is this, then its good to have it

#1072 (comment)

[HardenedSteel]

Thanks that feature is also really needed for Haveno imo

[monerobull]

It shouldn't mean we should give up and use CEX.

There is no "giving up and using CEX" here, we just don't want fractional reserve offers that will lead to tons of offers constantly failing to take.

that feature is also really needed for Haveno imo

And imo it would greatly hurt Haveno and make it even worse of an experience to use for regular users. The only people who would benefit from this are traders with little Monero liquidity.

I do not support subsidizing these people, you want a solution? Buy some more Monero cheapcels.

[HardenedSteel]

you want a solution? Buy some more Monero cheapcels.

thanks for letting me know you're trolling

[monerobull]

trolling

I am dead serious. If you don't have the Monero, don't try to implement fractionally reserved offers to make up for your lack of Monero liquidity.
Everyone in Monero benefits by killing off this legacy banking CEX bullshittery.

[XMRfamily]

What about 1 offer but can have multiple payment methods and price tiers (1-5k 3% 5k-10k 2% 10k+ 1%) etc

[XMRZombie]

"Looks like this is a massive change to the underlying protocol, which already isn't that stable right now."
A massive change sure, but i dont think conditional offers will make the protocol unstable.
Most important is the taker should use one currency/payment-method only (not using all conditions to trade)

[Final-Phoenix]

I think accepting multiple payment methods for a single offer would be an improvement. Would be a nice QoL and it would open up wider options for people to buy and sell Monero instead of being pigeon-holed into a single payment method when they would otherwise be happy to accept other payment methods as well. Naturally that means more trades would happen.

I'm sure there are ways we can think of to account for the potentially inflated orderbook stats. For example, just off the top of my head, maybe a unique category in the stats for multiple payment method offers? Or dividing by the number of payment methods connected to an offer so it's not "double counting"

What are the chances different users take the same offer around the same time? I would think it would be pretty rare even with the longer delay from Tor. But maybe I'm wrong. And worst case a notice can just inform the user that someone else has already taken the offer/offer has been taken down. Not sure why that would be such a big deal.