#monero-community.log

2020-08-04T13:26:10 0 <sgp_> on a different note:
2020-08-04T13:27:04 0 <sgp_> the MCW board was able to vote yesterday and drafted their high-level ideas for this workgroup going forward
2020-08-04T13:27:08 0 <sarang> I'm fine with media coverage as long as it makes clear what a preprint is
2020-08-04T13:27:26 0 <sgp_> You can read the draft here: https://gist.github.com/SamsungGalaxyPlayer/77932db05ada82012d4f86bc862c17fb
2020-08-04T13:28:30 0 <sgp_> We feel that formalizing the workgroup will allow for new participants to get involved, especially on non-developer projects
2020-08-04T13:28:48 0 <sarang> Why an LLC?
2020-08-04T13:28:51 0 <sgp_> and it will make maintaining community resources more stable and less reliant on people like Diego, Doug, and me
2020-08-04T13:29:06 0 <midipoet> yeah, was going to say - what is the LLC about?
2020-08-04T13:29:09 0 <sgp_> sarang: good question, something we talked about a lot
2020-08-04T13:29:46 0 <sarang> I think that will be interpreted as saying the Monero community is a company
2020-08-04T13:29:55 0 <sarang> Even though it isn't
2020-08-04T13:30:09 0 <sgp_> as you all know the workgroup is very much acting in an informal nonprofit capacity at the moment
2020-08-04T13:30:51 0 <sgp_> we considered an official nonprofit registration, but that is a ton of work, more than any of us can manage to put in at the moment
2020-08-04T13:31:28 0 <sarang> Yeah a 501(c)(3) would be a lot
2020-08-04T13:31:35 0 <sgp_> and we decided that the benefits of having some entity are too strong to pass up
2020-08-04T13:31:46 0 <sarang> Like what?
2020-08-04T13:31:54 0 <midipoet> why does it have to registered in the US?
2020-08-04T13:32:01 0 <midipoet> if even registered at all?
2020-08-04T13:32:10 0 <sgp_> for example, having a bank account to pay for server fees, rather than having me pay for them and doing a CCS all the time in XMR, then converting on an exchange someone is registered on rather than an entity
2020-08-04T13:33:02 0 <sgp_> midipoet: doesn't have to be, but all our expenses are in USD
2020-08-04T13:33:13 0 <midipoet> sgp_: fair point
2020-08-04T13:33:57 0 <midipoet> maybe we should work towards greater geographical distribution, especially in your board. i mean if the US gets nuked, MCW is screwed
2020-08-04T13:34:39 0 <sgp_> midipoet: if it gets nuked (unlikely; we aren't doing anything illegal), we can operate unregistered again I guess
2020-08-04T13:34:58 0 <sgp_> I consider it getting nuked an extremely low risk
2020-08-04T13:35:05 0 <sgp_> oh wait
2020-08-04T13:35:09 0 <sgp_> read that wrong
2020-08-04T13:35:15 0 <sgp_> hopefully we don't actually get nuked :)
2020-08-04T13:35:45 0 <sgp_> but then you all are here to start your own entity or whatever. It's just been US people putting in a lot of these efforts so far
2020-08-04T13:36:46 0 <sgp_> TL;DR on why we want an entity: we want a bank account
2020-08-04T13:36:50 0 <midipoet> well, personally i don't really agree with all the formalisation, but if you think it's necessary - its up to the board!
2020-08-04T13:37:50 0 <sgp_> other than the company, what are your other concerns?
2020-08-04T13:38:47 0 <sethsimmons> It's certainly more formal/centralized than I expected
2020-08-04T13:39:00 0 <sethsimmons> But thats not necessarily a bad thing, and could help to drive this effort forward if handled well
2020-08-04T13:39:40 0 <sgp_> the biggest change in practice will be to come up with "committees"
2020-08-04T13:39:42 0 <sethsimmons> Honestly it's probably the right approach, as centralization of a workgroup is really an advantage IMO, as long as people still see the gaps where they can contribute/the leadership don't do weird things contrary to the communities wishes
2020-08-04T13:40:12 0 <sethsimmons> My only concern is if the board is interpreted as speaking on behalf of the project as a whole it could cause a lot of confusion.
2020-08-04T13:40:22 0 <midipoet> i think creating a board that votes for its own members is questionable
2020-08-04T13:40:44 0 <sgp_> would incorporating as "Not Monero LLC" help? lol
2020-08-04T13:41:02 0 <sethsimmons> XD
2020-08-04T13:41:31 0 <sethsimmons> I think just clear signalling/branding that makes it hard for people to conflate MCW the organization and Monero the project as one and the same
2020-08-04T13:41:34 0 <sgp_> "Justin, incorrectly represented as the king of Monero and an officer of Not Monero LLC"
2020-08-04T13:41:44 0 <midipoet> i also can't see (though i have not read it in that much detail) a formal manner to get someone removed from the board by the community.
2020-08-04T13:42:06 0 <midipoet> but anyway, i don't really mind. i mean i trust the three board members - but to outsiders it may seem very different
2020-08-04T13:42:18 0 <sethsimmons> Hmm thats a good point -- what community oversight is there if one or more board members goes rogue?
2020-08-04T13:42:46 0 <sgp_> the committees can perform a coup I guess and migrate everything over to their own entity
2020-08-04T13:42:55 0 <midipoet> there is also no defined reporting or audit mechanism for the board, as far as i can see?
2020-08-04T13:43:57 0 <midipoet> is the board accountable to anyone/group? what keeps them in check?
2020-08-04T13:44:16 0 <sgp_> midipoet: I don't think I included anything about specific reporting or auditing there
2020-08-04T13:44:36 0 <sgp_> but with an open finance workgroup, the finances will also be pretty open
2020-08-04T13:44:41 0 <sgp_> *committee
2020-08-04T13:45:22 0 <midipoet> whats an open finance committe/workgroup?
2020-08-04T13:45:35 0 <sgp_> basically volunteers who help with the basic books
2020-08-04T13:45:39 0 <midipoet> anyway, i am getting distracted. i am sure other's have questions
2020-08-04T13:46:14 0 <ErCiccione> I won't say my opinion, because i didn't give a deep read yet, but i wouldn't use the name "Monero Community Workgroup" for a legal entity. I think that would create a lot of confusion and could give the impression that an LLC is the general structure of Monero wokgroups, which is not the case. Monero workgroups are informal groups, if the community workgroup choose a different road, the difference should be
2020-08-04T13:46:15 0 <ErCiccione> clear
2020-08-04T13:46:21 0 <midipoet> i would also worry about having Monero in a LLC name
2020-08-04T13:46:32 0 <midipoet> i mean, could end up in a law suit somewhere
2020-08-04T13:46:40 0 <ErCiccione> Yeah i don't like that at all
2020-08-04T13:46:44 0 <midipoet> not that i am a lawyer, but anyway
2020-08-04T13:46:59 0 <sgp_> I'm more worried about the reputational risk than the legal risk
2020-08-04T13:47:10 0 <midipoet> to who, Monero, or youself?
2020-08-04T13:47:20 0 <sgp_> Monero if we named it poorly
2020-08-04T13:47:28 0 <midipoet> the risk works both ways, imo
2020-08-04T13:48:28 0 <ErCiccione> more i read the post more i think that calling it "workgroup" should be really avoided.
2020-08-04T13:48:36 0 <midipoet> the whole thing sort of reminds me of what ZCash would do. or some other cryptos that have foundations, entities, organisations, etc.
2020-08-04T13:50:03 0 <sgp_> well, we are neither Core Team members nor receive the block reward
2020-08-04T13:54:43 0 <ErCiccione> My general opinion is that if you want to make an LLC who works with Monero, you shouldn't really use the name "Monero workgroup" in it. Simply because the structure you are adopting is not the structure of a monero workgroup, but something completely different and i don't want people to think the monero community suddenly decided to adopt this structure for its workgroups.
2020-08-04T13:56:00 0 <ErCiccione> Personally i don't like such hyperformalization, i don't see the reason for it, but if people going be part of it are happy, good for you, but make clear that it's something different.
2020-08-04T13:57:24 0 <sgp_> We will do our best to make sure that there is as little confusion as possible. Most people will not even know there's an entity involved, since how would they know and why does it matter? We are an entity around for the sake of providing free services to the community
2020-08-04T13:58:38 0 <ErCiccione> I understand your point. But you are not just an entity, now you are a *legal* entity. I don't think making your best is enough, names are important. And calling a newly formed legal entity "Monero workgroup" is misleading
2020-08-04T14:00:08 0 <ErCiccione> Also, i woud like to have more info about the legal consequences of this change. Because if i understood correctly, now the biweekly community meetings will be run by this "official" entity.
2020-08-04T14:01:31 0 <ErCiccione> The #monero-community channel (and other things) is now listed as an asset of the company, what is changing from a legal point of view?
2020-08-04T14:02:40 0 <midipoet> i think the MCW should hire a lawyer to provide an impact assessment whitepaper
2020-08-04T14:05:47 0 <ErCiccione> I agree. I don't think you should just drop a change like this. Especially because you are not planning to create new tools, channels, resources, but to incorporate preexisting resources to a newly formed legal entity.
2020-08-04T14:06:14 0 <asymptotically> can you really own a freenode channel?
2020-08-04T14:06:29 0 <Mumuks[m]> fluffypony what is your relation to fluffychat? We demand answer
2020-08-04T14:06:40 0 <midipoet> he owns IT ALL
2020-08-04T14:06:44 0 <fluffypony> fluffychat?
2020-08-04T14:06:49 0 <asymptotically> this is MEA2!
2020-08-04T14:06:50 0 <asymptotically> .primer
2020-08-04T14:06:50 0 <monerobux> The point is not how much i made, point is fluffy did this on purpose, more than 10 people were in on it. His commit access needs to be revoked asap!
2020-08-04T14:08:38 0 <Mumuks[m]> fluffypony: don't pretend like you don't know?
2020-08-04T14:08:56 0 <fluffypony> I'm seriously lost - too much backlog lol
2020-08-04T14:09:19 0 <Mumuks[m]> "Open. Nonprofit. Cute" is your kind of slogan
2020-08-04T14:09:28 0 <Mumuks[m]> https://fluffychat.im/en/
2020-08-04T14:09:54 0 <sethsimmons> Can we keep this on topic Mumuks:
2020-08-04T14:09:59 0 <sethsimmons> This is a pretty important discussion IMO
2020-08-04T14:10:36 0 <sethsimmons> <ErCiccione "I agree. I don't think you shoul"> I didn't fully realize that this was taking over many of the existing tools of MCW, which again, with the particular people on this board I'm not too concerned
2020-08-04T14:10:38 0 <ErCiccione> Yeah please avoid shitposting at least when an important conversation is ongoing
2020-08-04T14:10:39 0 <Mumuks[m]> I did not realize there was a conversation going on
2020-08-04T14:10:45 0 <sethsimmons> But it's a weird and sudden move that I was not expecting
2020-08-04T14:11:06 0 <sethsimmons> I didn't even know there was already a MCW board :D
2020-08-04T14:11:10 0 <sgp_> ErCiccione: we are not going to call the entity "Monero Workgroup LLC". Help us pick a better name
2020-08-04T14:11:36 0 <Inge-> "Monero Workgroup LLC (unofficial)"
2020-08-04T14:11:48 0 <asymptotically> Services For The Monero Community? a mouthful, but accurate :)
2020-08-04T14:11:53 0 <sethsimmons> I'm all for a formalization/organizing of the focus for the group, but the LLC and limited board with no oversight is a bit.. odd for something that many correlate to the Monero project as a whole
2020-08-04T14:12:05 0 <sgp_> also this channel is already technically supreme-owned by Core
2020-08-04T14:12:20 0 <sgp_> and it's already run by the same people
2020-08-04T14:12:23 0 <sgp_> nothing is changing
2020-08-04T14:13:05 0 <sgp_> f we do something dumb, Core can take this channel from us
2020-08-04T14:14:06 0 <ErCiccione> But that's not really the case sgp_. Even in practice doesn't change anything, you cannot say that having some resources under the umbrella of a company doesn't make any difference.
2020-08-04T14:14:31 0 <midipoet> Core is also definitely not a LLC (afaiu)
2020-08-04T14:14:58 0 <ErCiccione> also, the name itself is not really much the point if the goal of the company is to basically replace the Monero Workgroup with a  legal entity
2020-08-04T14:15:35 0 <ErCiccione> So if you change the name of the company but you call yourself "Monero community workgroup", doesn't really change much :P
2020-08-04T14:15:55 0 <sgp_> we still intend to call this the Monero Community Workgroup
2020-08-04T14:16:31 0 <ErCiccione> What is "this"?
2020-08-04T14:19:32 0 <sgp_> the operating name I guess
2020-08-04T14:22:57 0 <ErCiccione> Well, that's what my objection is about. Incorporating existing structures to a new legal entity with a closed board who decides about it, it's a move i don't like. And calling it "Monero Community Workgroup" is misleading. That's not a workgroug, you are just transforming a workgroup in a legal entity.
2020-08-04T14:24:08 0 <sgp_> Mastering Monero has always had a legal entity behind it, yet it's still open, people can contribute, and there's still a workgroup that's around supporting it that the entity is in "charge" of
2020-08-04T14:24:53 0 <sgp_> the board is closed, but the entity is basically irrelevant since it understands how to best work with the community, since it's made of community members
2020-08-04T14:25:20 0 <sgp_> the same people who have run the workgroup up to this point are the same three people who will continue to lead it
2020-08-04T14:26:04 0 <sgp_> and we don't need to mention the company really at all if it makes people weirded out
2020-08-04T14:26:21 0 <ErCiccione> "always had" is the key here and the entity produces a product "The mastering Monero book" so that makes sense. I don't understand why you speak like this change doesn't make any practical difference, it's obviously not the case, even if the people are the same and do the same things they were doing before.
2020-08-04T14:26:25 0 <sethsimmons> I guess I'll sum up my question as this: what advantage does a closed board and new LLC bring, instead of just an open CW that has an agenda item to formalize it's focus/goals?
2020-08-04T14:26:57 0 <sethsimmons> I think the formalization/focus is good, but I don't see why the closed board + LLC are necessary for that
2020-08-04T14:27:26 0 <sgp_> sethsimmons: the "closed board" is already how it works in effect; if there ever were disagreements, people would always need to start their own group
2020-08-04T14:27:55 0 <sethsimmons> I wasn't aware of that structure, but that's good to know.
2020-08-04T14:28:45 0 <midipoet> i actually always thought the community workgroup was just an open workgroup
2020-08-04T14:28:59 0 <midipoet> i definitely did not know there was a board
2020-08-04T14:29:15 0 <sethsimmons> Same, I had no idea there was a controlling group of 3, but I guess it makes sense that there is a core group driving things.
2020-08-04T14:29:27 0 <sgp_> midipoet: who did you expect has been planning all the stuff in the background for years?
2020-08-04T14:29:28 0 <midipoet> but a closed group?
2020-08-04T14:29:54 0 <midipoet> sgp_: the people who wanted to plan!
2020-08-04T14:30:11 0 <sgp_> yeah exactly :)
2020-08-04T14:30:16 0 <midipoet> i mean, i have lended some time to planning, so never felt it was closed
2020-08-04T14:30:30 0 <midipoet> but now you are saying it was, and also that you want to formalise it!
2020-08-04T14:30:48 0 <oceanus[m]> Oh wow another sjw code of conduct
2020-08-04T14:30:49 0 <sgp_> fwiw the group doesn't plan to ever be closed, which is exactly why we want to start delegating some tasks to people
2020-08-04T14:31:00 0 <sgp_> people who are able to help out
2020-08-04T14:31:15 0 <midipoet> what do you mean, you have just announced a plan to close the board!
2020-08-04T14:31:20 0 <midipoet> literally!
2020-08-04T14:31:37 0 <sethsimmons> He's saying the board will be closed, but committees will take over day to day tasks
2020-08-04T14:31:45 0 <sethsimmons> and will be sued to delegate things out
2020-08-04T14:31:53 0 <sgp_> the board still will care about community sentiment, and I guess you need to trust that us 3 will do that
2020-08-04T14:31:54 0 <sethsimmons> So functionally it will remain the same, just formalized
2020-08-04T14:32:18 0 <midipoet> so what if the board decides not to delegate, and to maintain control of the committees?
2020-08-04T14:32:33 0 <sgp_> then that's a terrible, tiny community lol
2020-08-04T14:32:33 0 <midipoet> (in some hypothetical scenario, let's say)
2020-08-04T14:32:49 0 <sgp_> and honestly that's what it mostly looks like now (see the gist for all the rando stuff I'm doing)
2020-08-04T14:32:51 0 <midipoet> sgp_: cmon, it' snot funny. we have seen things go bad
2020-08-04T14:32:59 0 <midipoet> saying "it won't go bad here"
2020-08-04T14:33:47 0 <midipoet> is not that valid...
2020-08-04T14:34:10 0 <sgp_> the intent is to get more people involved than are currently helping with these tasks
2020-08-04T14:34:31 0 <sgp_> with it being so informal, it's less clear what people should do, leading the barriers to entry high, and thus meaning the same faces keep doing the same work
2020-08-04T14:34:45 0 <sgp_> we should be getting new faces in here in new leadership roles
2020-08-04T14:34:52 0 <midipoet> yes, i agree.
2020-08-04T14:35:16 0 <midipoet> so having a closed leadership board that essentially owns an LLC, is not the way to do that, imo
2020-08-04T14:35:16 0 <sgp_> this entity is around to support the infrastructure I really believe needs to be in place to allow that to happen easily
2020-08-04T14:35:27 0 <ErCiccione> I really don't see the point in keep saying "it was already like that but not fomalized". It's not a formalizations. It's a transformation into a legal company, with legal obligations, which is trasforming public resources into "assets of the company". I feel like this point is being understated.
2020-08-04T14:35:52 0 <sgp_> ErCiccione: nah, the "assets" will still be open for anyone to use
2020-08-04T14:36:11 0 <sgp_> we can still CC everything
2020-08-04T14:36:18 0 <ErCiccione> In rpactice yeah, but not legally or formally
2020-08-04T14:36:22 0 <ErCiccione> you can't ignore that
2020-08-04T14:36:34 0 <sgp_> and if we don't, then we should receive pushback from you all, which is awesome and healthy
2020-08-04T14:38:40 0 <fluffypony> Mumuks[m]: hah cool - first time I'm seeing that
2020-08-04T14:38:46 0 <fluffypony> wish I could take credit
2020-08-04T14:38:48 0 <fluffypony> but it's not mine
2020-08-04T14:39:17 0 <midipoet> why can't the MCW become a co-operative?
2020-08-04T14:39:23 0 <fluffypony> looks like it's just a Matrix clieent
2020-08-04T14:39:24 0 <fluffypony> *client
2020-08-04T14:39:25 0 <midipoet> surely that legal structure is possible to implement?
2020-08-04T14:40:52 0 <oceanus[m]> sgp_ : you know what would be healthy? If you stopped making unnecessary power grabs. LOL
2020-08-04T14:41:16 0 <sethsimmons> Idk that this is a power grab.
2020-08-04T14:42:39 0 <sgp_> midipoet: possibly, depends what you specifically have in mind
2020-08-04T14:43:12 0 <sgp_> since when is "I need an easier way to pay bills" a money grab lol
2020-08-04T14:43:42 0 <fluffypony> not that there's lots of things a cooperative will struggle to do, for eg. get a DUNS number
2020-08-04T14:44:03 0 <midipoet> sgp_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative#:~:text=co%2Dop%20values.-,Cooperatives%20as%20legal%20entities,a%20range%20of%20social%20characteristics.
2020-08-04T14:44:03 0 <monerobux> [WIKIPEDIA] Cooperative#:~:text=co-op values.-,Cooperatives as legal entities,a range of social characteristics. | "A cooperative (also known as co-operative, co-op, or coop) is "an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly-owned enterprise".Cooperatives may include:businesses owned and managed by the people who..."
2020-08-04T14:45:40 0 <midipoet> cooperatives are pretty established where i am - and have substantial rights and affordances granted to them. may be different elsewhere, admittedly.
2020-08-04T14:53:04 0 <sgp_> midipoet: I would probably need to talk to a lawyer to start one
2020-08-04T14:57:53 0 <sgp_> a co-op might make sense; members who pay dues get votes, and they receive a "dividend" of sorts based on how much they spend on business goods/services
2020-08-04T14:58:41 0 <sgp_> a co-op isn't a standalone structure in the US afaict; it's a corporation or LLC acting as a cooperative
2020-08-04T15:06:27 0 <sgp_> imo to get this project off the ground, it's best to proceed as-is and consider operating as a cooperative if that makes sense. I need to do more research however
2020-08-04T15:06:37 0 <sgp_> members getting votes is reasonable to me
2020-08-04T15:09:17 0 <sgp_> I will need a good finance committee in place before we can do this though
2020-08-04T15:12:54 0 <oceanus[m]> Can't you just switch to a server that accepts crypto? What else do you need a bank account for?
2020-08-04T15:20:40 0 <selsta> I might have missed that in the backlog, what kind of USD payments is the workgroup expecting?
2020-08-04T15:21:56 0 <sgp_> selsta: servers for NextCloud, Flarum, Mastodon, Chatwoot, Sandstorm/Wekan, etc.
2020-08-04T15:26:24 0 <selsta> What is the plan for funding?
2020-08-04T15:28:50 0 <xmrscott[m]> "sethsimmons" (https://matrix.to/#/@sethsimmons:matrix.org): On a board of 3 you'd need at least 2 of 3 to go rogue to be a real concern, IMO
2020-08-04T15:29:32 0 <xmrscott[m]> "sgp_" (https://matrix.to/#/@freenode_sgp_:matrix.org): What is the main work with creating a non-profit? Is it annual upkeep or creation based that's the problem
2020-08-04T15:30:40 0 <xmrscott[m]> As an employee at my company I have access to a lawyer retainership thing for a flat $20/month that may be of use. Far rather have a nonprofit than a LLC
2020-08-04T15:31:19 0 <selsta> Creating a LLC or non profit just to pay for servers sounds super overkill IMO, isn’t this the exact use case for the general donation fund?
2020-08-04T15:31:33 0 <selsta> Hosting these services does not seem too costly
2020-08-04T15:33:21 0 <Mumuks[m]> Plus paying with USD for an xmr association when you can pay them with xmr is just sad
2020-08-04T15:33:26 0 <Mumuks[m]> Apart from bad pr
2020-08-04T15:34:25 0 <sgp_> Mumuks[m]: lol you find reliable, inexpensive servers payable in XMR for your own workgroup then
2020-08-04T15:34:45 0 <sgp_> selsta: Core doesn't want to maintain any of this
2020-08-04T15:35:08 0 <sgp_> and to be honest, there should be a group separate from Core who is willing to provide services
2020-08-04T15:36:32 0 <sgp_> xmrscott[m]: both? you need a bunch of initial policies, then you need to prepare the main application, then you need to file more extensive returns annually, and then you are prohibited from doing certain things
2020-08-04T15:38:23 0 <cassact[m]1> 501c3 non profits are time consuming and expensive to incorp with irs because they have so many tax benefits, and they get a LOT more donations
2020-08-04T15:38:52 0 <xmrscott[m]> Ah, so might even need an accountant rather than just a lawyer
2020-08-04T15:39:09 0 <cassact[m]1> But there are other non profit structures. 501c4, 501c12,
2020-08-04T15:39:10 0 <sgp_> cassact[m]1: I know, I have one pending registration whose process started in early 2017 :)
2020-08-04T15:39:46 0 <cassact[m]1> Yeah IRS looks at 501c3s HARD
2020-08-04T15:40:19 0 <cassact[m]1> But don’t need to be a 501c3 to be a nonprofit, is what I’m saying
2020-08-04T15:42:29 0 <cassact[m]1> IMO it doesn’t really matter what the formal legal structure is, what matters is whose runnin it, and the bylaws
2020-08-04T15:43:01 0 <sgp_> yeah, that's my perspective too. plus we aren't anticipating a profit so the benefits of a non-c3 nonprofit would be very small
2020-08-04T15:47:43 0 <cassact[m]1> <sgp_ "Mumuks: lol you find reliable, i"> Capsul.org (which I’m a part of) has affordable and payable in xmr, but we are still in open beta
2020-08-04T15:49:59 0 <cassact[m]1> Our group is having a lot of these same discussions so it will be interesting to see where it goes here
2020-08-04T15:50:09 0 <sgp_> cassact[m]1: do you have scalable storage?
2020-08-04T15:50:26 0 <sgp_> we will need for NextCloud especially
2020-08-04T15:51:07 0 <cassact[m]1> By request yes.
2020-08-04T15:51:49 0 <dsc_> holy backlog :) What's the TL;DR? LLC for Community Workgroup?
2020-08-04T15:55:02 0 <cassact[m]1> <dsc_ "holy backlog :) What's the TL;DR"> Discussions around that topic yeah
2020-08-04T15:55:16 0 <sgp_> dsc_: yeah, only for the sake of paying for stuff y'all need :)
2020-08-04T15:56:01 0 <dsc_> seems benign
2020-08-04T15:56:25 0 <dsc_> In true Monero spirit, people can do with their workgroup whatever they want :P
2020-08-04T15:57:25 0 <sgp_> cassact[m]1: Cyberia is out of Minnesota? Nice :)
2020-08-04T15:57:29 0 <sgp_> are the servers there too?
2020-08-04T15:58:20 0 <xmrscott[m]> Indeed. People can create a 'Monero Illuminati LLC' if so inclined and throw XMR at people if so inclined
2020-08-04T15:58:27 0 <cassact[m]1> Our matrix and jitsi server is
2020-08-04T16:00:00 0 <cassact[m]1> <sgp_ "are the servers there too?"> We shipped off our Capsul server to Georgia though. Also right now we are pricing .25 cents for additional GB
2020-08-04T16:00:17 0 <midipoet> so is anybody allowed to make s claim for community assets to be incorporated into their LLCs as well?
2020-08-04T16:00:28 0 <midipoet> checking for a friend
2020-08-04T16:01:25 0 <cassact[m]1> Iirc that’s pretty fact specific
2020-08-04T16:03:33 0 <xmrscott[m]> "midipoet" (https://matrix.to/#/@freenode_midipoet:matrix.org): I mean who is going to stop you, the Monero Illuminati?
2020-08-04T16:05:31 0 <midipoet> nobody i suppose. all's fair in blockchain wars episode 4.
2020-08-04T16:22:17 0 <sgp_> midipoet: I have no idea what you're getting at
2020-08-04T16:24:08 0 <midipoet> It was a joke sgp_ , I was intimating that there are no real rules in the land of blockchain, as its decentralised and trustless.
2020-08-04T16:26:29 0 <sgp_> ah
2020-08-04T16:27:08 0 <sgp_> I will confirm with anhdres that we can continue using his artwork
2020-08-04T16:28:19 0 <sgp_> 'cause that brick-building Monero logo one is amazing
2020-08-04T16:29:43 0 <ErCiccione> Let me just say that i'm not a big fan of "That's how we do it, if you don't like it fork away (or fund your own group)" IMO it's just an absolute mentality who leaves very few space for growth and increase the possibility of conflict when there could be none.
2020-08-04T16:30:18 0 <ErCiccione> Beside, i still think that a for-profit company made to "pay bills" it's way overkill and doesn't explain the capillary structure of the company itself.
2020-08-04T16:31:34 0 <ErCiccione> In any case, i hope that when the company will be formed and the assets absorbed by it, it will be made public, so that people will be aware of the structure "above them". People who contribute to the "workgroup" must be aware of its legal structure
2020-08-04T16:32:21 0 <sgp_> What experience does everyone have here trying to manage US taxes, receiving donations, converting on exchanges, and paying bills for a non-formed organization on their personal tax return? Seriously
2020-08-04T16:32:37 0 <sgp_> it's easy to armchair this problem away
2020-08-04T16:33:37 0 <sgp_> sure, let me just handle all this extra work which messes up my other investment capital gains, no biggie 🙄
2020-08-04T16:35:09 0 <cassact[m]1> <erciccione_[m] "Let me just say that i'm not a b"> An LLC does not have to be “for profit”, only publicly traded corps with fiduciary duties to its shareholders have legal obligations to pursue profit
2020-08-04T16:35:25 0 <cassact[m]1> (Iirc)
2020-08-04T16:36:24 0 <ErCiccione> And that's why we need more pseudonym cypherpunks to join this community, so that leading a workgroup doesn't mess up with "other investment capital gains"
2020-08-04T16:36:46 0 <sgp_> lmao ok, that's respectfully absurd ErCiccione
2020-08-04T16:37:06 0 <sgp_> don't tell me to ignore tax laws
2020-08-04T16:37:10 0 <ErCiccione> It was just a provocation
2020-08-04T16:37:19 0 <ErCiccione> i never said that
2020-08-04T16:39:37 0 <cassact[m]1> IMO it’s mildly crazy that Monero Core doesn’t have a lawyer on payroll.
2020-08-04T16:39:56 0 <cassact[m]1> Cuz this is what lawyers are for haha
2020-08-04T16:40:07 0 <Inge-> maybe rehrar can do a by-mail degree?
2020-08-04T16:40:11 0 <sgp_> they kinda do indirectly through Tari, etc
2020-08-04T16:40:24 0 <fluffypony> yeah cassact[m]1 we do
2020-08-04T16:40:30 0 <fluffypony> we use the Software Freedom Law Center for some stuff
2020-08-04T16:40:38 0 <ErCiccione> It just make me feel a bit sad. I liked Monero when it was rough and dirty. Now i have the feeling that there is more interest in being compliance and make sure you don't bother uncle sam. I really understand the concerns and the wish of having a legal structure, i just think this is not a good way to do it.
2020-08-04T16:40:56 0 <fluffypony> and then stuff that falls out of their purview we use the GCs at Tari, GloBee, and one of my companies
2020-08-04T16:41:19 0 <fluffypony> so we really have no lack of legal help
2020-08-04T16:41:30 0 <sgp_> ErCiccione: this isn't the whole community. Everyone else can still do whatever they want. This workgroup tries to involve everyone, but it certainly doesn't represent everyone
2020-08-04T16:43:00 0 <rehrar> Core is sending me to law school boys.
2020-08-04T16:43:06 0 <sgp_> lol noice
2020-08-04T16:43:17 0 <cassact[m]1> @fluffypony oh good.
2020-08-04T16:43:28 0 <rehrar> "it's surprising Monero doesn't have an on staff doctor"
2020-08-04T16:43:38 0 <cassact[m]1> Oh god don’t do it rehear
2020-08-04T16:43:41 0 <rehrar> Core is sending me to medical school boys.
2020-08-04T16:43:51 0 <sgp_> fluffypony needs 24/7 anti-trolling counseling
2020-08-04T16:43:58 0 <dsc_> +1
2020-08-04T16:44:03 0 <fluffypony> rehrar: akshully I have a Level 3 First Aid from St. John's
2020-08-04T16:44:05 0 <fluffypony> :-P
2020-08-04T16:44:07 0 <dsc_> we need an intervention
2020-08-04T16:44:24 0 <sgp_> I have my First Aid merit badge, available for hire
2020-08-04T16:46:09 0 <fluffypony> ErCiccione: I think you can still be "rough and dirty" while still doing stuff that doesn't land you in prison
2020-08-04T16:46:19 0 <fluffypony> like you can work on privacy software and also pay your taxes
2020-08-04T16:46:51 0 <fluffypony> and there's also an argument to be made for being open to attack if you don't take pre-emptive action on things like copyrights, trademarks, and patents
2020-08-04T16:47:12 0 <cassact[m]1> Tbh I’d be surprised if core doesn’t end up eventually needing a whole legal team, Monero is like a ticking time bomb of potential thorny legal questions, and the devs are the most likely target for frivolous lawsuits and gov overreaching
2020-08-04T16:47:34 0 <fluffypony> (fwiw Tari Labs has got a slow burn side-project looking at building defensive patents for Monero and Tari)
2020-08-04T16:47:39 0 <sgp_> I think people overestimate the actions the US government will take against developers
2020-08-04T16:48:04 0 <sgp_> well, at least against developers who are not adminstrators of a centralized network
2020-08-04T16:48:16 0 <fluffypony> s/defensive patents/a defensive patent portfolio
2020-08-04T16:48:16 0 <monerobux> fluffypony meant to say: (fwiw Tari Labs has got a slow burn side-project looking at building a defensive patent portfolio for Monero and Tari)
2020-08-04T16:48:24 0 <cassact[m]1> <sgp_ "I think people overestimate the "> Your probably right, I’m just paranoid haha
2020-08-04T16:48:31 0 <fluffypony> sgp_: yeah definitely
2020-08-04T16:49:14 0 <ErCiccione> fluffypony: Yes, i wasn't talking about practical implications. it's just the feeling it's giving me. I too would have been surprised if core didn't have any lawyer or "legal strategy", but core has way bigger responsability.
2020-08-04T16:50:12 0 <ErCiccione> I think i made clear the multiple aspects of this change. I hope i am wrong about everything obviously, but i still didn't like the move.
2020-08-04T16:50:50 0 <cassact[m]1> Patent law is incredibly fascinating. It’s even explicitly mentioned in the US constitution
2020-08-04T16:52:45 0 <sgp_> any other questions or concerns? I wanted to make sure to openly share what we want to do that way there aren't any surprises, and allow for changes before they happen
2020-08-04T16:52:55 0 <ErCiccione> I still think that if the reason is really merely "to pay taxes", many things in the post i read are superfluous and many "assets" didn't need to be incorporated. Anyway, i wrote enough about it.
2020-08-04T16:54:23 0 <cassact[m]1> <sgp_ "any other questions or concerns?"> A suggestion would be to post Bylaws and (redacted) articles of incorporation online.
2020-08-04T16:54:47 0 <sgp_> I'm open to that, but they will probably be super boilerplate for simplicity
2020-08-04T16:55:39 0 <cassact[m]1> Also a warning to be very careful about who actually incorporates
2020-08-04T16:56:01 0 <cassact[m]1> Cuz depending on the state,
2020-08-04T16:56:08 0 <cassact[m]1> Personal details will probably become public
2020-08-04T16:56:26 0 <sgp_> I already incorporated a company called rCryptoCurrency LLC in Wyoming that will be renamed and restructured. Wyoming is a favorable state
2020-08-04T16:56:57 0 <cassact[m]1> Ah yup, that’ll do it.
2020-08-04T16:57:00 0 <sgp_> :)
2020-08-04T17:02:30 0 <xmrscott[m]> "ErCiccione" (https://matrix.to/#/@erciccione_:matrix.org): FWIW, if you want that chrome cypherpunk feeling you can always attend the C3 Monero stuff in incognito assuming you don't already
2020-08-04T17:03:45 0 <ErCiccione> i've been trying to participate for 2 years. For one reason or another i never could. In the future maybe? Or maybe not, we'll never know :P
2020-08-04T17:07:52 0 <sgp_> ErCiccione: make sure to do the online Defcon stuff this weekend :)
2020-08-04T17:08:58 0 <dsc_> I hope HCCP is still a live event
2020-08-04T17:12:49 0 <ErCiccione> sgp_: Oh yeah, i won't miss that.
2020-08-04T17:13:14 0 <ErCiccione> Conferences with no human interaction <3
2020-08-04T17:14:44 0 <rehrar> dsc_: should I come?
2020-08-04T17:14:50 0 <dsc_> rehrar: yes
2020-08-04T17:14:56 0 <dsc_> you liked it so much last time
2020-08-04T17:15:02 0 <dsc_> !
2020-08-04T17:15:14 0 <rehrar> In regards to this whole LLC thing, I honestly don't think there's a wrong way to do this.
2020-08-04T17:15:45 0 <rehrar> For all accounts and purposes, the workgroup more or less already has just under a BDFL set up
2020-08-04T17:16:10 0 <rehrar> maybe incorporating under a name like Monero Resources would be better than community though. I see that concern for sure.
2020-08-04T17:16:55 0 <rehrar> because you can never underestimate people's stupidity. They will get it confused. The news WILL say that the Monero community started a business (when they didn't). If the business does something wrong they WILL say the Monero community did it (which would be wrong)
2020-08-04T17:17:05 0 <rehrar> we saw this with things like the Bitcoin foundation.
2020-08-04T17:17:16 0 <rehrar> Better to just avoid that entirely by choosing an appropriate name.
2020-08-04T17:17:21 0 <xmrscott[m]> That name certainly sounds better and at least less likely to cause confusion
2020-08-04T17:17:36 0 <rehrar> And no, adding Workgroup on the end doesn't fix anything. We won't be able to explain to everyone what a workgroup is.
2020-08-04T17:18:12 0 <rehrar> dsc_: hanging out with friends was fun
2020-08-04T17:18:15 0 <rehrar> the conference was kinda trash
2020-08-04T17:18:16 0 <dsc_> it was :)
2020-08-04T17:18:35 0 <dsc_> hmm I don't think it's trash
2020-08-04T17:18:35 0 <Inge-> what conf was that?
2020-08-04T17:18:42 0 <rehrar> HCPP
2020-08-04T17:18:57 0 <xmrscott[m]> Monero Center For Scrubs Who Can't Pay Good, or something
2020-08-04T17:18:57 0 <rehrar> critical thinking was at an all-time low, and maximalists ran rampant screeching about altcoins
2020-08-04T17:19:08 0 <Inge-> rehrar: cue today.
2020-08-04T17:19:30 0 <dsc_> .quote add <@rehrar> critical thinking was at an all-time low, and maximalists ran rampant screeching about altcoins
2020-08-04T17:19:37 0 <Inge-> $LINK! $XAMPL! $STORE! $HEX!
2020-08-04T17:20:36 0 <rehrar> and dsc_ didn't want me to play guitar
2020-08-04T17:20:43 0 <dsc_> rehrar: out of the 6 times i went to CCC i went to a total of 2 talks, soo for me it's more about meeting people and shitposting IRL as opposed to shitposting on IRC
2020-08-04T17:20:53 0 <dsc_> and one of those was a fluffypony talk
2020-08-04T17:21:12 0 <ErCiccione> rehrar: Those are exactly my concerns. I think using a different clear name would avoid a lot of possible issues.
2020-08-04T17:21:30 0 <rehrar> ErCiccione: Monero Conglomerate
2020-08-04T17:22:02 0 <sgp_> World Domination LLC
2020-08-04T17:22:12 0 <ErCiccione> Monero Evil Corp
2020-08-04T17:22:24 0 <rehrar> it's just I'm articulate and charismatic
2020-08-04T17:22:36 0 <rehrar> so I think I can be the MDFL of Monero
2020-08-04T17:23:48 0 <Inge-> I guess Monero Enterprise Alliance is out?
2020-08-04T17:27:43 0 <xmrscott[m]> moneroenterprisealliance.org and .com are available, FWIW
2020-08-04T17:29:57 0 <sgp_> lmao
2020-08-04T17:30:08 0 <sgp_> how about we don't actually make that a thing
2020-08-04T17:30:41 0 <fluffypony> we already have mea.business
2020-08-04T17:30:46 0 <fluffypony> because MEA means business
2020-08-04T18:56:32 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> I liked "fondajo" or however it was spellt
2020-08-04T19:01:13 0 <sgp_> yeah it was fondajo
2020-08-04T19:08:54 0 <zkao> if MEA partners up with our friends, the chain-analysis buddies, we can capture the highest grade, extremely low in dirt, precious bitcoins, against some average monero with atomic swaps. because, after all, all monero is average
2020-08-04T19:11:30 0 <xmrscott[m]> .mea
2020-08-04T19:12:15 0 <zkao> as in mea culpa
2020-08-04T19:13:20 0 <xmrscott[m]> Nah, just curious if the bot had anything for it, like it does for...
2020-08-04T19:13:25 0 <xmrscott[m]> .zooko
2020-08-04T19:13:25 0 <monerobux> And by the way, I think we can successfully make Zcash too traceable for criminals like WannaCry, but still completely private & fungible.
2020-08-04T19:29:17 0 <Inge-> MEA - Monero Enterprise Analysis suite of tracking software for Panopticoins
2020-08-04T19:39:52 0 <geonic> I'm with selsta midipoet and ErCiccione on that one
2020-08-04T19:39:59 0 <geonic> if it's about paying bills, why do you need to rename your rCryptoCurrency LLC ? just use that
2020-08-04T19:41:40 0 <geonic> have you asked for help from other community members with regard to accepting XMR and paying server bills in USD? or is your new legal structure solving a problem that you created by not asking for that help? I know there are plenty of people that would be willing to accept XMR and pay server bills in USD, myself included
2020-08-04T19:42:34 0 <sethsimmons> I would gladly also do that, if we could decentralize the ownership between a few people and rotate payments etc? Idk how that works out legally, though, as far as taxes are concerned for each of us
2020-08-04T19:42:40 1 <sethsimmons> But thats a great idea geonic
2020-08-04T19:48:12 0 <cassact[m]1> Decentralizing ownership should be fairly straightforward, especially if done before LLC has assets. Add new folks to the board, vote on share distribution.
2020-08-04T19:55:05 0 <geonic> it is even more straightforward than that. offer to decentralize before you've formed the LLC so that other members can take on the burden that you don't wish to carry. it's not like the community assets were created by the sole efforts of three individuals.
2020-08-04T19:59:24 0 <needmoney90> Its almost like you guys think an ad-hoc nonformalized way of ensuring payment and consistency are something to be avoided
2020-08-04T19:59:25 0 <needmoney90> its silly
2020-08-04T20:00:30 0 <sethsimmons> :P
2020-08-04T20:01:18 0 <sethsimmons> Overall I'm not completely against the LLC, just seems like its maybe a more drastic jump than necessary
2020-08-04T20:01:23 0 <needmoney90> The amount of libertarian drivel people in this community shout is disappointing sometimes. Its a direct impediment to actually getting shit done. And everyone who hasn't been directly involved in the existing (inefficient) processes thinks "well, why dont you just donate *more* of your time instead of doing things properly"
2020-08-04T20:01:46 0 <sethsimmons> But its also hard since we weren't privy to any of the conversations that led to this so I don't see a lot of the thought process.
2020-08-04T20:01:56 0 <sethsimmons> But the legal side is way out of my scope so I can't really comment on that.
2020-08-04T20:02:03 0 <needmoney90> Especially some of the people who are literally getting paid by the community getting pissy at people who are working, for free
2020-08-04T20:02:18 0 <needmoney90> Maybe some of your perspectives are skewed because you dont realize this is volunteer work.
2020-08-04T20:02:47 0 <geonic> wow. so doing volunteer work allows you to appropriate community resources into an LLC with an unelected board?
2020-08-04T20:02:51 0 <sethsimmons> I realize that 😕
2020-08-04T20:03:11 0 <needmoney90> And the moment us volunteers want to formalize and get shit organized so we can separate it from our own lives, we get yelled at for having the gall not to do it adhoc, ask for donations every month, or pay out of pocket
2020-08-04T20:03:13 0 <needmoney90> get over yourselves
2020-08-04T20:03:47 0 <geonic> needmoney90 you sound a little jaded from all the unpaid volunteer work you've been doing. maybe you should take a break.
2020-08-04T20:04:06 0 <needmoney90> I think your behavior is insulting for people trying to get shit done.
2020-08-04T20:04:08 1 <sethsimmons> Just stop geonic. No time to be so aggressive.
2020-08-04T20:04:24 0 <geonic> who's being aggressive? we're voicing our concerns and needmoney90 is preaching from the pulpit
2020-08-04T20:04:31 0 <needmoney90> lol
2020-08-04T20:04:34 0 <geonic> at least hear us out and maybe try to understand where we're coming from
2020-08-04T20:04:38 0 <sethsimmons> I realize the work you guys are doing, and I'm extremely thankful for it, I just think the people who are smaller contributors to MCW stuff were a bit blind sided.
2020-08-04T20:04:45 0 <sethsimmons> At least I was
2020-08-04T20:04:53 0 <needmoney90> Its literally a first draft
2020-08-04T20:05:13 0 <needmoney90> It's silly how up in arms a lot of you are
2020-08-04T20:05:19 0 <needmoney90> and some of the 'suggestions' for alternatives are laughable.
2020-08-04T20:05:37 0 <needmoney90> And geonic_ you're totally being aggressive.
2020-08-04T20:05:46 0 <geonic> the way it's been done for the past 3-4 years is suddenly laughable?
2020-08-04T20:06:04 0 <needmoney90> yes, because we've gotten just a tad bigger, yes.
2020-08-04T20:06:30 0 <sethsimmons> As we grow things are going to get... interesting with how informal/loose all of our consensus/workgroups are
2020-08-04T20:06:36 0 <needmoney90> ad hoc processes work in small venues
2020-08-04T20:06:39 0 <geonic> make a call for help and outline the responsibilities that need to be delegated.
2020-08-04T20:06:42 0 <sethsimmons> I'm thankful you three are trying to formalize/focus things.
2020-08-04T20:06:42 0 <needmoney90> lol
2020-08-04T20:06:51 0 <ErCiccione> needmoney90: since i'm the only one of the people who answered who is funded by the community i guess you are referring to me. I don't understand why you are being so aggressive
2020-08-04T20:07:08 0 <geonic> yeah that was way more aggressive than anything I've said
2020-08-04T20:07:27 0 <geonic> I think calling our concerns silly and laughable is dismissive and condescending
2020-08-04T20:07:41 0 <needmoney90> Well, its my opinion for a lot of the suggestions made.
2020-08-04T20:07:42 0 <geonic> when you haven't even asked for help and are shoving a solution down our throats.
2020-08-04T20:07:55 0 <needmoney90> I guess that's how you see it, but its not how I see it.
2020-08-04T20:08:05 0 <ErCiccione> But if what you are getting is "we don't agree with setting up a company because we want people to work for free" there isn't even much to discuss. That doesn't make any sense
2020-08-04T20:09:00 0 <geonic> fine, we see it differently. does it change the fact that you haven't asked for solutions from the community?
2020-08-04T20:09:14 0 <needmoney90> what do you think a first draft is
2020-08-04T20:09:22 0 <needmoney90> a mandate from god that's inflexible?
2020-08-04T20:09:31 0 <geonic> lol
2020-08-04T20:09:39 0 <geonic> " the MCW board was able to vote yesterday and drafted their high-level ideas for this workgroup going forward"
2020-08-04T20:09:48 0 <geonic> 90% of your contributors didn't even know there's an "MCW board"
2020-08-04T20:09:48 0 <sgp_> I'm busy and can't respond now but will read later and respond
2020-08-04T20:10:09 0 <geonic> looks self-elected to me.
2020-08-04T20:10:43 0 <needmoney90> Most shit in this community is self elected by people who are actually doing stuff
2020-08-04T20:10:57 0 <needmoney90> if you can name anyone outside of rehrar sgp and myself who have been organizing -community i'm all ears
2020-08-04T20:11:15 0 <needmoney90> If you think other people are putting in work and unrecognized, please speak
2020-08-04T20:11:35 0 <ErCiccione> Ehm ehm
2020-08-04T20:11:43 0 <sgp_> this is the humble beginning of this workgroup: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/5x41w3/accouncing_rmoneromarketing_and_some_explanation/
2020-08-04T20:11:44 0 <monerobux> [REDDIT] Accouncing /r/moneromarketing (and some explanation inside) (self.Monero) | 22 points (77.0%) | 7 comments | Posted by Rehrar | Created at 2017-03-02 - 16:06:31
2020-08-04T20:12:23 0 <needmoney90> erciccione, you are paid. I don't consider your work on the same level here.
2020-08-04T20:12:30 0 <needmoney90> And you're mainly on translations afaik
2020-08-04T20:12:33 0 <selsta> rehrar is also paid
2020-08-04T20:12:40 0 <needmoney90> that is true.
2020-08-04T20:12:43 0 <selsta> why is that relevant
2020-08-04T20:13:13 0 <ErCiccione> needmoney90: dude, you should look up what i was and i'm paid to do and what i do and did unpaid beford saying nonsense
2020-08-04T20:13:38 0 <ErCiccione> I suggest you to calm down and come back to discuss later. You are not coming of very well from these rants
2020-08-04T20:14:22 0 <needmoney90> :/
2020-08-04T20:14:49 0 <sethsimmons> We need a bit of a restart on these discussions I think :P
2020-08-04T20:15:04 0 <sethsimmons> Why don't we make a meta issue about this to have more long-form discussions?
2020-08-04T20:15:04 0 <cassact[m]1> Yes plz
2020-08-04T20:15:22 0 <sethsimmons> That way it's easier for people to follow up on later as well, and more clear for people looking back.
2020-08-04T20:16:58 0 <selsta> getting paid for something does not make the work less valuable
2020-08-04T20:17:46 0 <cassact[m]1> Governance in general is both really important and really complicated.
2020-08-04T20:18:01 0 <sethsimmons> No kidding...
2020-08-04T20:18:25 0 <geonic> buy Decred! it solves it for you.
2020-08-04T20:18:38 0 <geonic> sethsimmons :)
2020-08-04T20:19:38 0 <geonic> if the organizing burden is suddenly too much for the three of you, lay out the responsibilities that you do not want to deal with and see if anyone steps up. announce it on Reddit and do it in a community meeting. if no one steps up to ease your burden, form an LLC or handle it however you wish. but if you don't follow the processes established by this community workgroup so far, don't be surprised by the backlash
2020-08-04T20:20:22 0 <sethsimmons> lol
2020-08-04T20:20:54 1 <sethsimmons> <geonic "if the organizing burden is sudd"> Yeah, i do agree with this, I am more than happy to jump in and do more, and will have a lot of time on my hands for sept-dec
2020-08-04T20:21:54 0 <geonic> yep, a lot of us are ready to step up. but the holy trinity has been burdened with so much and no one else is doing anything! and you're all paid, anyway! please...
2020-08-04T20:22:20 0 <sethsimmons> Not sure if an LLC/board is needed, but more formalized agenda's/action items/assigned tasks is definitely a must.
2020-08-04T20:22:28 1 <needmoney90> speaking of aggression geonic
2020-08-04T20:22:33 0 <needmoney90> you should take a break.
2020-08-04T20:22:55 0 <geonic> when did sarcasm become aggression?
2020-08-04T20:23:02 0 <sethsimmons> Can everybody just take a step back.
2020-08-04T20:23:18 0 <sethsimmons> No need for the aggression from either of you
2020-08-04T20:24:40 0 <sethsimmons> Lets just come back to this later, or move it to a meta issue
2020-08-04T20:24:58 0 <needmoney90> libertarians, amirite
2020-08-04T20:25:08 0 <sethsimmons> :P
2020-08-04T20:25:09 0 <rottensox> ugh.
2020-08-04T20:25:30 0 <dsc_> so wait whats the possible issue of having a LLC to pay for server stuff?
2020-08-04T20:25:32 0 <rehrar> selsta: I was not paid when I started Monero Marketing
2020-08-04T20:25:40 0 <rehrar> I was not paid when sgp and I transitioned it to Monero Community
2020-08-04T20:26:36 0 <needmoney90> dsc_: an LLC makes an entity that's persistent and can make payments/organize stuff with other legal entities on a continuous basis, even if members drop in and out.
2020-08-04T20:26:44 0 <selsta> rehrar: oki
2020-08-04T20:26:47 0 <needmoney90> Oh, issues with an LLC?
2020-08-04T20:26:56 0 <needmoney90> idk. It's not libertarian enough for them I guess.
2020-08-04T20:27:06 0 <selsta> rehrar: did you read the backlog?
2020-08-04T20:27:08 1 <dsc_> yeah, what are the possible problems that can come from having a LLC? I don't understand what geonic is saying, or I'm not reading correctly - not sure
2020-08-04T20:27:10 0 <needmoney90> We should be paying out of pocket and changing who pays for stuff every month
2020-08-04T20:27:11 0 <rehrar> going through it yeah
2020-08-04T20:27:24 0 <needmoney90> because LLCs big bad
2020-08-04T20:27:34 0 <needmoney90> how dare we not encapsulate the libertarian spirit
2020-08-04T20:27:38 0 <sethsimmons> I don't have a specific issue with the LLC
2020-08-04T20:27:45 0 <sethsimmons> It was juts a more drastic jump than I expected
2020-08-04T20:27:54 0 <sethsimmons> There are many opinions happening in here :)
2020-08-04T20:27:57 0 <needmoney90> its the least drastic way of getting a consistent entity for payments
2020-08-04T20:28:06 0 <sethsimmons> I have no background to know if/when an LLC is needed so can't comment at all
2020-08-04T20:28:06 0 <needmoney90> without tying an individual to it of course
2020-08-04T20:28:10 0 <sethsimmons> <needmoney90 "its the least drastic way of get"> sounds great then.
2020-08-04T20:28:18 0 <needmoney90> we're pretty over paying for stuff out of pocket/dealing with it on taxes
2020-08-04T20:28:31 0 <needmoney90> its just a major hassle that can be alleviated if we make an entity as the face
2020-08-04T20:28:33 0 <cassact[m]1> IIRC By default LLCs are governed by owners who have total control over assests
2020-08-04T20:28:44 0 <dsc_> surely someone must *own* the server
2020-08-04T20:28:47 0 <rehrar> ok, caught up
2020-08-04T20:29:23 0 <dEBRUYNE> needmoney90: I presume the latter part is the most hassle, due to short and long-term cap gains?
2020-08-04T20:29:30 0 <needmoney90> yes.
2020-08-04T20:29:39 0 <rehrar> cassact[m]1: true, but in this case the biggest asset is arguably the IRC chat, and it's owned de-facto by core because of the #monero- in the name
2020-08-04T20:29:47 0 <dsc_> the way I see it, having a LLC does not impact decentralization? Like, person A can host service A, person B can host service B - both paid for via LLC, or whatever
2020-08-04T20:29:49 0 <needmoney90> The paying out of pocket isnt as much of a problem as sourcing info on where it came from, selling, cap gains, etc
2020-08-04T20:29:56 0 <rehrar> really, sgp_ is trying to deploy more things, that will be useful, in a way that is easy to do on taxes
2020-08-04T20:30:23 0 <rehrar> deploy a Jitsi, a sandstorm, why not a Matrix server? What about Chatwoot? Why not this or that? Big possibilities here.
2020-08-04T20:30:54 0 <rehrar> CCS makes it easier to collect money, but not to declare money.
2020-08-04T20:30:59 0 <rehrar> I think this is an important distinction.
2020-08-04T20:31:03 0 <sethsimmons> if an LLC is a helpful thing along the way go for it.
2020-08-04T20:31:40 0 <sethsimmons> *then
2020-08-04T20:31:43 0 <needmoney90> but its not libertarian! Its centralized, and therefore bad
2020-08-04T20:31:47 1 <dsc_> I'm also interested in geonic / ErCiccione's opinion though, probably best to create a meta issue
2020-08-04T20:31:49 0 <needmoney90> sorry. I'm not helping.
2020-08-04T20:31:56 0 <cassact[m]1> <rehrar "cassact: true, but in this case "> Yeah, and even then you could easily add structure to the LLC that makes it transparent and community run. LLCs are super flexible. Just wanted to point out where a gut dislike might be coming from
2020-08-04T20:32:03 0 <sethsimmons> Idk I don't have a big issue with things, I just didn't even know there was a board at all so I was caught off guard :P
2020-08-04T20:32:17 0 <sethsimmons> Yeah the sarcasm isn't super helpful to constructive discussions :/
2020-08-04T20:32:21 0 <geonic> needmoney90 that's so aggressive..
2020-08-04T20:32:23 0 <rehrar> sethsimmons: this is probably true of many people
2020-08-04T20:32:24 0 <geonic> ;)
2020-08-04T20:32:25 0 <needmoney90> the 'board' was an overnight thing in the past two days because rehrar sgp and I were fed up with a lot of stuff
2020-08-04T20:32:32 0 <rehrar> I'll be blunt and say that people take for granted that things go along relatively smoothly
2020-08-04T20:32:34 0 <needmoney90> like payments
2020-08-04T20:32:35 0 <rehrar> they think it just happens
2020-08-04T20:32:59 0 <rehrar> decentralization has scaled moderately well so far
2020-08-04T20:33:06 0 <needmoney90> we were squabbling about who pays what and decided that, you knjow, this is exactly why incorporated entities exist
2020-08-04T20:33:11 0 <needmoney90> to aggregate the needs of many
2020-08-04T20:33:33 0 <luigi1111w> seems more confusion in the name than anything. If you just want to pay for services, use a narrow name, if you want to absorb other things, use additional justification beyond paying for services.
2020-08-04T20:33:44 0 <rehrar> Monero Pay For Stuff LLC
2020-08-04T20:33:45 0 <geonic> yep
2020-08-04T20:34:05 0 <sethsimmons> well said luigi
2020-08-04T20:34:10 0 <rehrar> ok, difficult question here then
2020-08-04T20:34:31 0 <rehrar> should sgp_ needmoney90 and I leave Monero Community workgroup into other hands and start a new thing? More or less functionally the same except for the channel here.
2020-08-04T20:34:48 0 <needmoney90> I would be fine letting whoever wants to take over all my responsibility take it
2020-08-04T20:34:49 0 <needmoney90> please
2020-08-04T20:34:50 0 <needmoney90> please please
2020-08-04T20:35:03 0 <rehrar> we can fine tune and discuss further
2020-08-04T20:35:05 0 <needmoney90> starting bid is 0xmr
2020-08-04T20:35:11 0 <geonic> outline those responsibilities and publish them somewhere
2020-08-04T20:35:19 0 <needmoney90> lol
2020-08-04T20:35:23 0 <needmoney90> as if thats possible
2020-08-04T20:35:25 0 <needmoney90> its so ad-hoc
2020-08-04T20:35:33 0 <rehrar> so far an incomplete list
2020-08-04T20:35:37 0 <needmoney90> People constantly push back on formalization :D
2020-08-04T20:35:46 0 <geonic> "lol! I'm indispensable" :)
2020-08-04T20:35:56 1 <needmoney90> why are you being so stuck up geonic
2020-08-04T20:35:57 0 <needmoney90> seriously
2020-08-04T20:36:10 0 <rehrar> let's start with getting a volunteer to run this next meeting :)
2020-08-04T20:36:15 0 <sethsimmons> He's... a bit difficult lol
2020-08-04T20:36:17 0 <sethsimmons> Anyways
2020-08-04T20:36:20 0 <needmoney90> no shit seth.
2020-08-04T20:36:27 0 <sethsimmons> No, I think y'all are doing a good job and should keep running this.
2020-08-04T20:36:41 0 <needmoney90> I'm pretty over getting shit for nothing
2020-08-04T20:36:47 0 <sethsimmons> More transparency over what responsibilities need to be delegated will be great, and give people a clear way to get into the community.
2020-08-04T20:36:48 0 <needmoney90> I might just peace out for a month
2020-08-04T20:36:55 0 <sethsimmons> Pls dont :(
2020-08-04T20:37:02 0 <sethsimmons> You do great work around here dude
2020-08-04T20:37:09 0 <needmoney90> with people bitching constantly at me, it doesn't feel like it.
2020-08-04T20:37:09 0 <Inge-> +1
2020-08-04T20:37:09 0 <sethsimmons> Although if you need the time off seriously then take it.
2020-08-04T20:37:18 0 <sethsimmons> But I appreciate all you're doing SO MUCH.
2020-08-04T20:37:20 0 <rehrar> dEBRUYNE: said something last time we discussed the CoC that has stuck with me. The Monero Community workgroup may have started out as one thing (my idea to expand beyond devs), but it has turned into something more. The most accessible workgroup for Monero.
2020-08-04T20:37:29 0 <sethsimmons> You hold a hard role, and don't even get paid for it (somehow)
2020-08-04T20:37:34 0 <rehrar> In this case, I can see how it may be sacred ground to some, and not just the plaything of a few individuals anymore.
2020-08-04T20:37:59 0 <rehrar> hence the suggestion to release it to be that sacred ground and do something else
2020-08-04T20:38:22 0 <rehrar> the community can even vote to have the new LLC manage the new meeting, in the sacred ground, but at that point we're being pedantic and it gets silly. :P
2020-08-04T20:38:23 0 <sethsimmons> That wouldn't do any good, IMO, as like you've said you three are the "glue" at this point making things stick together for MCW
2020-08-04T20:38:33 0 <sethsimmons> That should continue IMO
2020-08-04T20:38:36 0 <needmoney90> Apparently people dont actually think that.
2020-08-04T20:38:46 0 <geonic> rehrar I thought the issue that the LLC was solving was payments, not running community meetings? why is this on the table now?
2020-08-04T20:39:42 0 <rehrar> I literally said that we can release the community workgroup things, like meetings, back to you all or a volunteer who wants to do them.
2020-08-04T20:39:44 0 <geonic> needmoney90 if you need to take a break, I encourage you to do it.
2020-08-04T20:40:04 1 <dsc_> geonic: cmon :P
2020-08-04T20:40:11 1 <needmoney90> stop being an ass geonic
2020-08-04T20:40:15 0 <geonic> ?????
2020-08-04T20:40:15 0 <rehrar> I also literally said that in this IRC channel, things don't really matter in terms of LLC ownership because it's all de facto owned by core
2020-08-04T20:40:33 0 <geonic> you said it and now I'm being an ass? can you stop with the name calling? aggressive, stuck up, an ass
2020-08-04T20:40:39 0 <needmoney90> yes. You are being.
2020-08-04T20:41:05 0 <xmrscott[m]> <dsc_ "the way I see it, having a LLC d"> Yes, this is precisely how I see it. I really don't know why things are blowing up out of nowhere.
2020-08-04T20:41:13 0 <geonic> I'd prefer it if you stopped with the insults
2020-08-04T20:41:15 1 <sethsimmons> geonic: there's literally no reason for being so disrespectful/aggressive
2020-08-04T20:41:20 0 <kinghat[m]> all of core would have names attached to the LLC?
2020-08-04T20:41:20 0 <sethsimmons> Give the man a break and have a real convo.
2020-08-04T20:41:31 0 <selsta> kinghat[m]: no
2020-08-04T20:41:42 0 <selsta> core is not involved with this
2020-08-04T20:41:44 0 <xmrscott[m]> Certain things I don't quite understand, core can't exactly own #monero-community precisely because they're not the actual freenode operators TMK
2020-08-04T20:41:56 0 <rehrar> kinghat[m]: no. None of them.
2020-08-04T20:42:05 0 <needmoney90> freenode has granted core control over all #monero- rooms.
2020-08-04T20:42:13 0 <needmoney90> If core asks, they will take over.
2020-08-04T20:42:28 0 <needmoney90> #xmr- is not covered, only #monero-
2020-08-04T20:43:07 0 <needmoney90> So core has been granted control through freenode's operators
2020-08-04T20:43:08 0 <luigi1111w> IDK if "control" constitutes "ownership"
2020-08-04T20:43:22 0 <kinghat[m]> i dont see how anyone can stop ppl from forming an LLC 🤷‍♂️
2020-08-04T20:43:24 0 <rehrar> ok, core controls then
2020-08-04T20:43:48 0 <luigi1111w> in case of a dispute, yeah
2020-08-04T20:43:56 0 <luigi1111w> so far, effectively no
2020-08-04T20:43:56 0 <rehrar> they can't, but they can get mad about it
2020-08-04T20:44:08 0 <cassact[m]1> I actually don’t have a clear understanding of the governance/structure of core. I tried looking for bylaws/voting structures/whatever, but I was unable to find anything after about 20 minutes of looking
2020-08-04T20:44:27 0 <rehrar> cassact[m]1: you don't want to know just how deep the informality goes
2020-08-04T20:45:01 0 <cassact[m]1> Oh Noez lol
2020-08-04T20:45:07 0 <sethsimmons> lol
2020-08-04T20:46:22 0 <cassact[m]1> I’m a huge legal nerd, so this stuff is really interesting to me.
2020-08-04T20:46:38 0 <xmrscott[m]> Yeah, I'm just curious as a curious person how an LLC could technically list an IRC channel of an IRC network they don't admin as a controlled asset, but I'm not really a legal buff
2020-08-04T20:46:46 0 <kinghat[m]> i think some skepticism is warranted, even w/o evidence of wrongdoing in crypto. turns out its flooded with it. not really surprising to me.
2020-08-04T20:47:18 0 <rehrar> ok, what exactly are people uncomfortable about in regards to the LLC? That it will be given the responsibilities that were previously held by the community workgroup?
2020-08-04T20:47:25 0 <rehrar> Can we explicitly name the things we are concerned about?
2020-08-04T20:47:30 0 <rehrar> Are we concerned about the meetings?
2020-08-04T20:47:34 0 <rehrar> Are we concerned about the channel?
2020-08-04T20:47:43 0 <rehrar> It can't be the jitsi since none of you use it and it's so new. :P
2020-08-04T20:47:49 0 <rehrar> Are we concerned about the coffee chat?
2020-08-04T20:48:01 0 <geonic> strict vs fluid structure
2020-08-04T20:48:57 0 * xmrscott[m] notes he's not really concerned about anything, just to be clear :) He also believes nm90 should take a sabbatical if he wants. rehrar was out for a week-ish, moved, etc, sgp is out for a weekend. People have things outside Monero they recharge with
2020-08-04T20:49:01 0 <sgp_> catching up now
2020-08-04T20:49:23 0 <sethsimmons> I have no real issue, as long as the closed board doesn't become an issue in the future.
2020-08-04T20:49:42 0 <geonic> I think the more appropriate place to start is, what problem is the LLC trying to solve? if it's about payments, set up a general monero payments LLC and use that. I see no reason the workgroup needs to have a legal entity sitting above it.
2020-08-04T20:49:44 0 <sethsimmons> But it's probably the best solution to codify some things and make sure shit actually gets delegated/assigned/completed properly without handholding
2020-08-04T20:50:03 0 <sethsimmons> Commitys are a good approach to delegating work, and I look forward to seeing where I can help out.
2020-08-04T20:51:02 0 <sethsimmons> s/Commitys/committees
2020-08-04T20:51:02 0 <monerobux> sethsimmons meant to say: committees are a good approach to delegating work, and I look forward to seeing where I can help out.
2020-08-04T20:51:08 1 <rehrar> geonic: it can't just be a general monero payments LLC can it? So moving money around for anyone who needs help with Monero payments? That would be very suspicious in terms of money laundering. :P That money needs to be defined in what it's used for and who is in charge of it.
2020-08-04T20:51:35 0 <rehrar> general money movement LLC would be a money transmitter of sorts and need an appropriate money transmitter license
2020-08-04T20:52:06 0 <geonic> yep. how do you plan on avoiding this in the structure you're proposing?
2020-08-04T20:53:46 0 <rehrar> by having assets defined as for purposes of this workgroup. Not just anyone will be able to send, receive, and make payment stuff from this LLC, and it won't be done on behalf of others.
2020-08-04T20:53:48 0 <kinghat[m]> i dont think the community knew that people(?) were being paid outside of the CCS? is this related? i dont care, i just didnt know. <--not referring to hosting and the like.
2020-08-04T20:54:00 0 <rehrar> kinghat[m]: person
2020-08-04T20:54:08 0 <rehrar> as far as I know I'm th eonly one.
2020-08-04T20:54:11 0 <rehrar> *the only
2020-08-04T20:54:17 0 <rehrar> luigi1111w: plz confirm
2020-08-04T20:54:21 0 <kinghat[m]> got ya
2020-08-04T20:54:55 0 <sgp_> okay, I'm mostly caught up
2020-08-04T20:55:13 0 <geonic> can you give us a ballpark idea of what those monthly costs are, that necessitate building out a bureaucracy around them? if I recall the CCS amounts, they weren't staggering
2020-08-04T20:55:18 0 <sgp_> first I want to say that even though a lot of these comments are heated, it's great news that people care so much
2020-08-04T20:55:33 0 <sgp_> people don't give a f in other shitcoin communities
2020-08-04T20:55:41 0 <luigi1111w> I can only confirm that core doesn't pay anyone else. Other entities probably do.
2020-08-04T20:55:41 0 <Inge-> wen moon?
2020-08-04T20:55:47 0 <rottensox> are you implying monero is a shitcoin now?
2020-08-04T20:55:55 0 <sgp_> rottensox: always was :p
2020-08-04T20:55:59 0 <luigi1111w> just state it outright
2020-08-04T20:56:10 0 <sgp_> but it's OUR shitcoin <3
2020-08-04T20:56:16 0 <Inge-> Once everything has been said, it would probably be a good idea to take a nights sleep break before jumping to conclusions.
2020-08-04T20:56:33 0 <kinghat[m]> 🤗
2020-08-04T20:56:46 0 <sgp_> I do think that there are huge misconceptions about what is actually being done here and why
2020-08-04T20:56:51 0 <sethsimmons> TIL Monero is shitcoin :'(
2020-08-04T20:56:53 0 <rehrar> deja vu
2020-08-04T20:57:08 1 <sgp_> geonic: rCryptoCurrency LLC was used for simpler accounting for Monero Means Money. Was that painful?
2020-08-04T20:57:11 0 <xmrscott[m]> #doomero
2020-08-04T20:57:17 0 <sgp_> you were a huge contributor to that
2020-08-04T20:57:37 0 <sgp_> and we needed an entity to talk to all the services that list movies and the like
2020-08-04T20:57:48 0 <sgp_> somewhere credible for the theaters to send invoices
2020-08-04T20:58:02 0 <sgp_> an entity to onboard to accept payments
2020-08-04T20:58:07 0 <cassact[m]1> Ooooh that’s interesting sgp_
2020-08-04T20:58:44 0 <kinghat[m]> SOMEONES GOING TO NEED TO TALK TO THE COPS!
2020-08-04T20:58:47 0 <sgp_> entities are often evil, sure. but this is an entity run by the same people who already lead this workgroup. the leadership and trust isn't changing
2020-08-04T20:58:51 0 <kinghat[m]> 😁
2020-08-04T20:59:29 0 <sgp_> this workgroup started from something that has 22 upvotes and 7 comments on Reddit
2020-08-04T20:59:33 0 <kinghat[m]> ya but they all start out good.. absolutely..
2020-08-04T20:59:39 0 <sgp_> we now have 146 people here alone, not counting bridges
2020-08-04T20:59:59 0 <sgp_> well, counting bridges but not the people using them :p
2020-08-04T21:00:08 0 <midipoet> Kind of questions the size of the proposed board then
2020-08-04T21:00:26 0 <midipoet> but anyways....
2020-08-04T21:00:37 0 <geonic> the point of contention is if the legal entity and the workgroup will be one and the same. if they are different and distinct, go for it. if you're putting a legal structure over an existing workgroup, you'd have to get buy-in from all of your members.
2020-08-04T21:00:39 0 <sgp_> midipoet: the whole point is for us to write some stuff down, find a way to get stable services going, and then find ways to grow
2020-08-04T21:01:04 0 <rehrar> I really would like to come back to the question of what exactly is being threatened here? The IRC channel is controlled by core. Meetings can be done by anyone. Heck, any stuff we deploy is going to be FOSS, and if the community doesn't like it or our leadership they can deploy their own stuff (because it's FOSS) and move onto there.
2020-08-04T21:01:11 0 <geonic> or at least a majority of them
2020-08-04T21:01:14 0 <cassact[m]1> I’m bridging in from matrix woo
2020-08-04T21:01:19 0 <rehrar> And the IRC channel can be taken from us by core and given to others so....
2020-08-04T21:01:40 0 <midipoet> sgp_: sure, I understand the sentiment. I just questioned the name, the absorption of assets, the self appointment of the board, and the no line of redress for the community.
2020-08-04T21:01:53 0 <rehrar> cassact[m]1: their change from Riot to Element was by and large a lateral move
2020-08-04T21:02:06 0 <sgp_> midipoet: fwiw we haven't done anything and this is a draft
2020-08-04T21:02:30 0 <geonic> well, you did form an unelected board 2 days ago :) 
2020-08-04T21:02:34 0 <sgp_> however it is clear to us, who have handled the administration for the past several years, that we need to make some simple changes to grow
2020-08-04T21:02:41 0 <kinghat[m]> can the board be voted on by the community like the CCS is voted on?
2020-08-04T21:02:43 0 <rehrar> midipoet: but as I just showed, there is no assets to absorb. :P
2020-08-04T21:02:47 0 <sgp_> and this will better allow people to join
2020-08-04T21:03:13 0 <cassact[m]1> <rehrar "cassact: their change from Riot "> And a dumb one too. I heard whispers it was cuz of Riot Games, but only whispers
2020-08-04T21:03:14 0 <rehrar> kinghat[m]: is the current de facto leadership voted on?
2020-08-04T21:03:29 0 <rehrar> cassact[m]1: Element has so many facepalmy UX issues.
2020-08-04T21:03:30 0 <midipoet> rehrar: to be honest I don't have the link to the proposal anymore, and forget the composition of the assets being absorbed. I remember it being quite long
2020-08-04T21:03:31 0 <sgp_> we only started referring to us 3 as the "board" 3 days ago, though the three of us were the leaders for a while
2020-08-04T21:03:38 0 <xmrscott[m]> freenode_cassact[m]: Well it was quite literally cited on their blog post circa mid July
2020-08-04T21:03:42 0 <geonic> I'm not sure how an LLC is easier to join than a decentralized, permissionless workgroup?
2020-08-04T21:03:57 0 <sgp_> https://gist.github.com/SamsungGalaxyPlayer/77932db05ada82012d4f86bc862c17fb
2020-08-04T21:04:07 1 <sgp_> geonic: it's not a decentralized, permissionless workgroup
2020-08-04T21:04:14 1 <rehrar> geonic: it's not the workgroup that would be hard to get into, but the leadership of it
2020-08-04T21:04:15 0 <sgp_> workgroups are not decentralized and permissionless
2020-08-04T21:04:19 0 <rehrar> and it's currently no different now
2020-08-04T21:04:23 0 <kinghat[m]> no but its also not a legal entity trying to represent monero.
2020-08-04T21:04:31 0 <rehrar> you can't just come in and say you want to be a part of the leadership of this workgroup and get in
2020-08-04T21:04:49 0 <sgp_> kinghat[m]: "no but its also not a legal entity trying to represent monero."   <- NO, we are not trying to represent Monero
2020-08-04T21:05:20 0 <geonic> OK, let me rephrase. how would an LLC structure attract more contributors?
2020-08-04T21:05:24 0 <cassact[m]1> <rehrar "you can't just come in and say y"> That’s how it works ina lot of community orgs I’m a part of tbh
2020-08-04T21:05:48 1 <rehrar> geonic: I can answer that actually
2020-08-04T21:05:59 1 <sgp_> geonic: we can organize tasks easier into committees using reliable tools we can pay for
2020-08-04T21:06:07 0 <xmrscott[m]> I'm guessing you'd be able to do things like OpenCollective, etc more easily
2020-08-04T21:06:12 0 <rehrar> it allows us easier accounting, which means more likely to deploy new things, such as Jitsi, Mastadon, etc. etc.
2020-08-04T21:06:15 0 <sgp_> xmrscott[m]: also yes, easier to raise money
2020-08-04T21:06:21 0 <kinghat[m]> fwiw i dont really care but i think there needs to be a healthy devils advocate for things this precious 😘
2020-08-04T21:06:22 0 <rehrar> and these new platforms can touch on communities that are already on those platforms
2020-08-04T21:06:28 0 <rehrar> and they can discover Monero
2020-08-04T21:06:42 1 <cassact[m]1> <geonic "OK, let me rephrase. how would a"> Clear pipeline, official structure, easier entry points, easier delegation
2020-08-04T21:07:07 0 <rehrar> basically, it allows for expansion of platforms by having clear pathways for the finances. More platforms means more participation. Not everyone likes IRC. Not everyone likes Reddit.
2020-08-04T21:07:15 0 <geonic> why don't you form an LLC that is independent of the workgroup and helps the workgroup on an informal basis?
2020-08-04T21:07:28 0 <midipoet> The more I read the proposal the less I like it!
2020-08-04T21:07:38 1 <rehrar> geonic: we could, but it would literally just be playing with definitions
2020-08-04T21:07:39 0 <sethsimmons> I'm going to have to hop off for a bit but will try and catch up/respond later.
2020-08-04T21:07:42 0 <midipoet> There are quite a few assets
2020-08-04T21:07:44 0 <rehrar> if the same people are running the LLC and the workgroup
2020-08-04T21:07:50 0 <rehrar> and they 'help' each other
2020-08-04T21:07:56 0 <rehrar> then it's literally no different, but pretending that it is
2020-08-04T21:08:15 0 <sgp_> midipoet: notice how many times my name is listed. I need to delegate to others for my sanity
2020-08-04T21:08:37 0 <geonic> you can easily decentralize who's running the workgroup. that seems to be part of the issue here, as you three are being burdened with too many responsibilities
2020-08-04T21:08:41 0 <cassact[m]1> <rehrar "then it's literally no different"> It’s worse imo
2020-08-04T21:08:42 0 <rehrar> midipoet: which ones in particular are you worried about?
2020-08-04T21:08:53 1 <sgp_> geonic: this is our way of simplifying the delegation process
2020-08-04T21:09:08 0 <sgp_> you may do it differently, but this doesn't seem like the "wrong" way in our opinion
2020-08-04T21:09:16 0 <midipoet> sgp_: nobody doubts the work that some (you included) do for Monero. I think people (myself included) always enjoyed the fact that it wasn't formalised.
2020-08-04T21:09:30 0 <sgp_> midipoet: I've hated doing informal work lmao
2020-08-04T21:09:36 0 <sgp_> it just meant that it was hard for me to ask for help
2020-08-04T21:09:39 1 <cassact[m]1> <geonic "you can easily decentralize who'"> You can easily decentralize a formal structure.
2020-08-04T21:09:40 0 <midipoet> but I suppose the goal is integration into the system.
2020-08-04T21:10:33 0 <midipoet> But I do want to say now, that I really don't like the threats to quit that seem to be becoming commonplace. On the whole I think it's extremely unhelpful.
2020-08-04T21:10:41 0 <kinghat[m]> even if it makes perfect sense to establish an LLC for this, IMO it doesnt really fit the ethos or narrative that something like monero represents.
2020-08-04T21:11:16 0 <rehrar> Group: "You will do it in a way that you hate." person: "er, I'd rather leave." Group: "That's not helpful. Don't make threats."
2020-08-04T21:11:21 0 <sgp_> midipoet: that's fair, but from the other perspective there's also not much else we can say to get the point across. We need people who volunteer to do specific things
2020-08-04T21:11:40 0 <sgp_> somewhere closer to the middle is appropriate
2020-08-04T21:12:16 0 <midipoet> sgp_: the whole idea of decentralisation is not a board delegating. It should be a bottom approach. Perhaps the reason few people get involved and stay involved is due to the perceived it actual hierarchy that might exist.
2020-08-04T21:12:18 0 <kinghat[m]> if we dont get a pump out of this im going to be pissed
2020-08-04T21:12:32 0 <rottensox> lol.
2020-08-04T21:12:34 0 <cassact[m]1> <kinghat[m] "even if it makes perfect sense t"> That’s a fair point. Speaking for myself I’m a big fan of co-ops
2020-08-04T21:13:07 0 <sgp_> midipoet: perhaps, but I'm going to instead bet on the fact that we just don't have supporting infrastructure
2020-08-04T21:13:11 0 <midipoet> rehrar:  thats not how it goes, and you know it
2020-08-04T21:13:27 0 <sgp_> midipoet: sometimes it feels like that
2020-08-04T21:13:33 0 <needmoney90> it does.
2020-08-04T21:13:34 0 <rehrar> that's literally what you said
2020-08-04T21:13:47 0 <geonic> it seems like years of unpaid work are being rewarded by appointment to an unelected board that will manage the efforts and contributions of a large and growing community. with no line of redress by said community, like midipoet said.
2020-08-04T21:13:48 0 <rehrar> people expressed a desire to not continue working the way things are and to change the status quo
2020-08-04T21:13:57 0 <rehrar> they said they might even be impacted on continuing to work if the status quo doesn't change
2020-08-04T21:14:15 0 <rehrar> you said this is unhelpful
2020-08-04T21:14:23 0 <rehrar> in the context of everyone fighting to keep the status quo
2020-08-04T21:14:26 0 <midipoet> rehrar: again, that's not true.
2020-08-04T21:14:32 0 <cassact[m]1> <midipoet "sgp_: the whole idea of decentra"> Again speaking for myself, I don’t get much involved because there does not seem to be a clear place for me to apply my primary skill set (accounting, lobbying, etc)
2020-08-04T21:14:50 0 <midipoet> the threats to quit are used as leverage to gain a better negotiating position
2020-08-04T21:14:51 0 <needmoney90> (we need that)
2020-08-04T21:14:52 0 <rehrar> cassact[m]1: be my accountant
2020-08-04T21:15:01 0 <sgp_> cassact[m]1: you're an accountant? Get ready for 1m tasks now :p
2020-08-04T21:15:09 0 <sgp_> also lobbying wow
2020-08-04T21:15:20 0 <needmoney90> we were literally discussing lobbying potential the other day
2020-08-04T21:15:27 0 <needmoney90> and concluded that we dont have any lobbyists
2020-08-04T21:15:29 0 <sgp_> "I don't know how to help with these super in-demand things" :p
2020-08-04T21:15:38 0 <sgp_> making a joke, not making fun of you :)
2020-08-04T21:15:51 0 <sgp_> but yeah, there are so many things we should be organizing here
2020-08-04T21:15:53 0 <kinghat[m]> https://media.giphy.com/media/q2U1Q4sgjtYs0/200.gif
2020-08-04T21:16:03 0 <midipoet> sgp_: you could have raised this issue in a meeting. Perhaps you have, but I have seen it. Even an issue in meta?
2020-08-04T21:16:06 0 <cassact[m]1> Right see this is perfect, I didn’t know there was a need for these things lol
2020-08-04T21:16:27 0 <rehrar> why are people so obsessed with talking about things on github?>
2020-08-04T21:16:28 0 <rehrar> ?
2020-08-04T21:16:32 0 <xmrscott[m]> Worth noting that threats to quit don't really IMO result in a better neogotiating position
2020-08-04T21:16:47 0 <sgp_> midipoet: as far as I see it, it was better to introduce it here in chat before making a formal announcement elsewhere
2020-08-04T21:16:56 0 <xmrscott[m]> Anyone can create a LLC right now called Monero Core LLC w/o any inputs
2020-08-04T21:17:00 0 <sgp_> y'all would have complained regardless :p
2020-08-04T21:17:05 0 <needmoney90> ^
2020-08-04T21:17:11 0 <midipoet> rehrar: GitHub issues have slower refresh rate, meaning responses can be more considered.
2020-08-04T21:17:36 0 <rehrar> so do regular forums. We should move to one of those. And it's not github which isn't meant for that
2020-08-04T21:17:46 0 <sgp_> almost like we should have a Flarum
2020-08-04T21:17:50 0 <rehrar> and when I tried to launch a forum people said that it would further fracture the community
2020-08-04T21:17:52 0 <rehrar> sgp_: LOL
2020-08-04T21:17:53 0 <sgp_> who could support that I wonder
2020-08-04T21:18:02 0 <geonic> anyone who wants to quit, you can hand your resignation letters to me. I'll accept them :) just putting it out there
2020-08-04T21:18:18 1 <rehrar> geonic: and you'll take over responsibilities
2020-08-04T21:18:22 0 <geonic> lol
2020-08-04T21:18:23 0 <geonic> :)
2020-08-04T21:18:33 0 <rehrar> lol
2020-08-04T21:18:34 0 <rehrar> :(
2020-08-04T21:18:37 0 <sgp_> I also agree with xmrscott[m] it's not useful to trade these things back and forth
2020-08-04T21:18:37 0 <midipoet> sgp_: you made a formal announcement in chat did you not? You even pre announced it a few days ago.
2020-08-04T21:18:44 1 <sethsimmons> <geonic "anyone who wants to quit, you ca"> Dude... Just stop it already, you’re just trolling and being incredibly unhelpful.
2020-08-04T21:18:52 0 <sgp_> midipoet: we still also need to make wider announcements
2020-08-04T21:19:07 0 <geonic> sethsimmons it's OK, you don't have to be the knight in shining armor. just calling people's bluff.
2020-08-04T21:19:19 0 <rehrar> I can't quit. Core has dirt on me. :(
2020-08-04T21:19:33 0 <rehrar> "You work for a drug coin!!"
2020-08-04T21:19:37 0 <sgp_> lmao
2020-08-04T21:19:42 0 <needmoney90> its true
2020-08-04T21:19:58 0 <midipoet> rehrar: adding an additional platform is a valid concern. GitHub is not an additional platform, it's an existing one, where there is precedent for discussions being had.
2020-08-04T21:20:01 0 <xmrscott[m]> Got 'em
2020-08-04T21:20:42 0 <rehrar> midipoet: goodness gracious, bro. It's like arguing that you should use a hammer to screw in a screw rather than buying a screwdriver, a tool that was designed for screwing in screws.
2020-08-04T21:20:43 0 <sgp_> midipoet: I can share on meta if people really want, but it will be more of an announcement when it happens
2020-08-04T21:21:20 0 <xmrscott[m]> It's worth highlighting again, any LLC would not hold ownership of critical infrastructure. Core owns moderation of #monero-* on freenode, core owns the monero repositories, getmonero.org
2020-08-04T21:21:26 0 <sgp_> I get that people are skeptical, but I advise people to trust us
2020-08-04T21:21:31 0 <rehrar> xmrscott[m]: I have tried explaining this thrice
2020-08-04T21:21:35 0 <midipoet> xmrscott[m]: the threats to quite ends the discussion, or changes it to one that has no middle ground, which is helpful for the person making the threat to quit.
2020-08-04T21:21:37 0 <needmoney90> I also think people should trust me
2020-08-04T21:21:39 0 <needmoney90> I trust me
2020-08-04T21:21:40 0 <needmoney90> its easy
2020-08-04T21:21:50 0 <sgp_> you've trusted us so far
2020-08-04T21:21:59 0 <needmoney90> 'tolerated' more like 👀
2020-08-04T21:22:02 0 <dsc_> i trust nm90 except for his taste in music
2020-08-04T21:22:03 0 <dsc_> true story
2020-08-04T21:22:04 0 <sgp_> often times with disagreements
2020-08-04T21:22:08 0 <sgp_> dsc_: lol
2020-08-04T21:22:08 0 <midipoet> rehrar: my point was about an additional platform, not about the tool
2020-08-04T21:22:10 0 <rehrar> dsc_: mood
2020-08-04T21:22:17 0 <dsc_> <3
2020-08-04T21:22:33 0 <sgp_> midipoet: we'll do our best to get the word out there for the benefit of the community
2020-08-04T21:22:58 0 <xmrscott[m]> midipoet: My point is that the three individuals could just up and create it w/o dealing w/ the drama on IRC and then go about creating a Flarum based community, etc
2020-08-04T21:23:06 0 <sgp_> though the takeaway should be that we are growing and opening up new avenues to support this growth as a result
2020-08-04T21:23:06 0 <midipoet> sgp_: my point is not about where you made the announcement, it's more of when have you mentioned or discussed that the workload was too much/burdensome and you needed help
2020-08-04T21:23:18 0 <xmrscott[m]> They have instead opted to create a RFC draft of the LLC, kinda
2020-08-04T21:24:01 0 <sgp_> midipoet: I actually talked about this a lot here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjNXmJUk2Jo
2020-08-04T21:24:02 0 <monerobux> [ Justin Ehrenhofer - Improving Monero Release Schedule - DEF CON 27 Monero Village - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com
2020-08-04T21:24:11 0 <sgp_> though the focus was on the release schedule
2020-08-04T21:24:20 0 <sgp_> the message was the same
2020-08-04T21:24:35 0 <geonic> giving a talk on the subject is not the same as raising it in a meeting or on Reddit, where it can actually be solved
2020-08-04T21:24:36 0 <sgp_> we need to feel okay with some structure
2020-08-04T21:24:57 0 <geonic> if you have trouble recruiting candidates into the leadership fold, create a vacuum and see what happens
2020-08-04T21:24:59 0 <sgp_> and this isn't Monero itself, but a side group of people who care too much for their own good
2020-08-04T21:25:07 1 <sgp_> geonic: no
2020-08-04T21:25:32 0 <midipoet> sgp_: ok, so if you think you have discussed the burden issue with the community enough before this announcement, so be it. I didn't feel it was that way, but perhaps I was oblivious.
2020-08-04T21:25:38 0 <needmoney90> dsc_: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdWQEmlUwAA6cei.png:large
2020-08-04T21:25:43 0 <rehrar> ...perhaps we should split the difference and leave Monero Community as is. Make the LLC a different thing entirely. Deploy infrastructure through the LLC that the community workgroup can use as it pleases. That way we can play security theater and people can be happy.
2020-08-04T21:25:59 0 <geonic> sgp_ ?
2020-08-04T21:26:03 0 <dsc_> nm90 <3
2020-08-04T21:26:20 0 <geonic> rehrar thank you
2020-08-04T21:26:20 1 <sgp_> geonic: suggesting a vacuum is prudent is... insane
2020-08-04T21:26:20 0 <rehrar> it would literally and practically be the same thing, but people will like the definitions so we gucci
2020-08-04T21:26:45 0 <needmoney90> but its so libertarian!
2020-08-04T21:26:54 0 <needmoney90> Think of how libertarian it is, isn't that something worth shooting for?
2020-08-04T21:26:58 0 <cassact[m]1> <rehrar "...perhaps we should split the d"> That can get messy legally
2020-08-04T21:27:07 0 <sgp_> no, I will argue that people need to get used it. it's the same leadership, ideals, etc
2020-08-04T21:27:16 0 <midipoet> Stfu with the libertarian shit.
2020-08-04T21:27:18 0 <sgp_> there's no actual difference
2020-08-04T21:27:24 0 <geonic> is libertarian an insult now? your tone isn't coming across on IRC
2020-08-04T21:27:29 0 <rehrar> sgp_: I was mostly being sarcastic
2020-08-04T21:27:37 0 <rehrar> because it's literally the same thing
2020-08-04T21:27:37 0 <sgp_> didn't come across lol
2020-08-04T21:27:56 0 <rehrar> it'd be different if we left the -community workgroup in someone's hands
2020-08-04T21:28:01 0 <rehrar> but nobody has stepped up
2020-08-04T21:28:07 0 <rehrar> tons of opinions and nobody wanting to do anything
2020-08-04T21:28:10 0 <sgp_> the three of us will talk about the feedback we received and will make sensible adjustments
2020-08-04T21:28:24 0 <geonic> oh my. when the only sensible compromise from the three of you is sarcastic we've got issues. the other alternative is quitting altogether, of course.
2020-08-04T21:28:29 0 <sgp_> however the three of us will pursue additional infrastructure for the community
2020-08-04T21:28:38 0 <geonic> rehrar in the 30 minutes since you've made the offer, sure
2020-08-04T21:28:41 0 <rehrar> I'll be blunt. Go make your own workgroup. Structure it how you like. :)
2020-08-04T21:28:41 0 <sgp_> people don't need to use it
2020-08-04T21:29:02 0 <xmrscott[m]> <rehrar "but nobody has stepped up"> Has there been a call for example, heading weekly -community meetings that has gone unanswered?
2020-08-04T21:29:02 0 <sgp_> but we need these tools provided by someone if we want to grow
2020-08-04T21:29:12 0 <xmrscott[m]> If there has, I've sadly missed it
2020-08-04T21:29:22 0 <sgp_> xmrscott[m]: there definitely will be in the future
2020-08-04T21:29:24 0 <geonic> rehrar we've joined this workgroup because of its current structure. you're proposing to change the structure. we're discussing it.
2020-08-04T21:30:06 0 <geonic> if your proposal to quit and leave the workgroup to be managed by someone else is serious, discuss it internally among the other two board members and present it at a community meeting. you might be surprised by the response.
2020-08-04T21:30:21 0 <geonic> but I'm pretty sure that's another joke of yours
2020-08-04T21:30:30 0 <rehrar> I myself never threatened to quit. ;)
2020-08-04T21:30:35 0 <geonic> ho-ho-ho
2020-08-04T21:30:43 0 <xmrscott[m]> He has dirt on 'em, after all
2020-08-04T21:30:54 0 <rehrar> Dealing with the horrendously frustrating portions of Monero is one thing I'm paid for.
2020-08-04T21:31:12 0 <geonic> I don't begrudge anyone their salary. get that money
2020-08-04T21:31:13 0 <rehrar> One of the reasons I stuck with Kovri and nobody else did.
2020-08-04T21:31:53 0 <rehrar> And I don't begrudge anyone their opinion.
2020-08-04T21:32:19 0 <rehrar> But I'm fine being sarcastic too. ^__^
2020-08-04T21:32:32 0 <sgp_> okay, looks like this conversation isn't really productive anymore
2020-08-04T21:33:06 0 <sgp_> I also need to duck out for a while
2020-08-04T21:33:46 0 <midipoet> rehrar: your example isn't the same thing. There is a transfer of assets into an LLC (I assume officially in some manner), a self appointed board, no line of redress by the community formalised, and I assume shares in that LLC held by someone/something somewhere? (TBC)
2020-08-04T21:34:35 0 <sgp_> the shares aren't worth anything since there are no assets
2020-08-04T21:34:51 0 <sgp_> and we aren't hiring people; the volunteers will keep rights to all the work that they do
2020-08-04T21:34:58 0 <sgp_> we aren't having people sign NDAs haha
2020-08-04T21:35:09 0 <midipoet> Practically speaking it is a lawful transfer of assets into a single entity.
2020-08-04T21:35:14 0 <needmoney90> what assets
2020-08-04T21:35:27 0 <rehrar> THE JITSI!!1!11
2020-08-04T21:35:28 0 <needmoney90> there aren't any assets
2020-08-04T21:35:35 0 <sgp_> if anything it's only assets that nm, rehrar, and I have rights to transfer
2020-08-04T21:35:35 0 <midipoet>  A social media account is not an asset?
2020-08-04T21:35:53 0 <sgp_> yeah, @xmrcommunity is my right to transfer
2020-08-04T21:36:02 0 <sgp_> same with Monero YT, etc
2020-08-04T21:36:09 0 <sgp_> *MoneroCommunityWorkgroup YT
2020-08-04T21:36:21 0 <midipoet> yes. I understand that someone owns/controls them now
2020-08-04T21:36:40 0 <midipoet> In the scenario, the LLC owns them, correct?
2020-08-04T21:36:41 0 <sgp_> there will actually be more oversight over these now
2020-08-04T21:37:05 0 <needmoney90> it will turn accounts owned by one person into accounts owned by multiple, that need to agree.
2020-08-04T21:37:31 0 <xmrscott[m]> This is useful for example, when the creator dies in a freak boating accident
2020-08-04T21:37:38 0 <midipoet> And what if the shareholders wish to sell their shares?
2020-08-04T21:37:41 0 <needmoney90> only our coins get lost in boating accidents
2020-08-04T21:37:44 0 <needmoney90> not our lives
2020-08-04T21:37:48 0 <sgp_> midipoet: we can say that they can't
2020-08-04T21:37:54 0 <sgp_> tons of options
2020-08-04T21:38:01 0 <midipoet> Who is we?
2020-08-04T21:38:04 0 <sgp_> LLC is hella flexible
2020-08-04T21:38:09 0 <sgp_> bylaws
2020-08-04T21:38:31 0 <midipoet> Understood.
2020-08-04T21:39:00 0 <sgp_> we're open to suggestions on how to best outline these, absolutely
2020-08-04T21:39:17 0 <sgp_> companies can have various restrictions
2020-08-04T21:39:41 0 <cassact[m]1> I’d love to help with that
2020-08-04T21:39:48 0 <cassact[m]1> I write bylaws for fun :p
2020-08-04T21:39:55 0 <needmoney90> I....don't
2020-08-04T21:39:58 0 <sgp_> lmao
2020-08-04T21:39:59 0 <needmoney90> we would love assistance
2020-08-04T21:40:06 0 <sgp_> yes absolutely
2020-08-04T21:40:10 0 <midipoet> As I said, I think it should be a cooperative. Or at least a number of smaller LLCs geographically distributed, with shares distributed to the community.
2020-08-04T21:40:19 0 <sgp_> will hit you up after Defcon. Nothing will happen before then
2020-08-04T21:40:32 0 <rehrar> ick!
2020-08-04T21:40:39 0 <rehrar> all this time spent on this. I have to go back and work on defcon things.
2020-08-04T21:40:42 0 <needmoney90> oh, question, does anyone have a couple bucks worth of zcash that I can have?
2020-08-04T21:40:46 0 <needmoney90> I'm making a puzzle for defcon
2020-08-04T21:40:49 0 <needmoney90> and I'm not a dirty turncoat
2020-08-04T21:40:53 0 <sgp_> midipoet: I'm okay penciling that in as a long-term goal, but acting as a cooperative takes expertise I don't have
2020-08-04T21:41:03 0 <cassact[m]1> An LLC can be a cooperative.
2020-08-04T21:41:19 0 <sgp_> yeah, why I tried to use the "acting as" language
2020-08-04T21:41:29 0 <sgp_> and bylaws can be changed
2020-08-04T21:41:41 0 <needmoney90> (with a majority vote)
2020-08-04T21:41:47 0 <needmoney90> (or supermajority if thats the previously set bar)
2020-08-04T21:41:53 0 <sgp_> nah, with supreme Justin vote
2020-08-04T21:41:57 0 <asymptotically> needmoney90: ooo is it gonna be like the ctf?
2020-08-04T21:42:03 0 <needmoney90> asymptotically yes :)
2020-08-04T21:42:07 0 <sgp_> (obviously /s)
2020-08-04T21:42:14 0 <luigi1111w> <needmoney90> oh, question, does anyone have a couple bucks worth of zcash that I can have? <= nice try, IRS
2020-08-04T21:42:15 0 <needmoney90> The plan is to have a few tracing puzzles
2020-08-04T21:42:24 0 <needmoney90> where you have to identify the output tx
2020-08-04T21:42:34 0 <needmoney90> for various chains (wasabi, monero EABE, and zcash)
2020-08-04T21:42:48 0 <needmoney90> But I have no zcash to make a tx :p
2020-08-04T21:42:49 0 <sgp_> for example, building on this https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/XHqxPQhM/University%20of%20Zurich%20-%20Exercise.docx
2020-08-04T21:43:03 0 <sgp_> okay I for real need to bounce now, peace
2020-08-04T21:43:09 0 <rehrar> bai
2020-08-04T21:45:20 0 <dsc_> y u link docx
2020-08-04T21:45:29 0 <dsc_> r u spreading macros
2020-08-04T21:45:32 0 <Inge-> needmoney90: I'm sure zooko will source you some
2020-08-04T21:45:53 0 <needmoney90> After he called my community a cult to my face, I'm not too interested
2020-08-04T21:46:34 0 <xmrscott[m]> needmoney90: Is there a service to convert XMR to ZEC that doesn't involve KYC?
2020-08-04T21:46:38 0 <cassact[m]1> Oh cool I’ve always wanted to join a cult
2020-08-04T21:46:54 0 <xmrscott[m]> If so give me a link and a z/t-addr and I'll dirty my hands
2020-08-04T21:47:18 0 <needmoney90> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/hPIGNoDA/ksvtTPyEyrewHNzLFp73umEqoXkWUjcXGYuPp6Fuy5k.jpg
2020-08-04T21:47:29 0 <Inge-> xmrscott[m]: binance? tradeogre?
2020-08-04T21:48:41 0 <xmrscott[m]> Alright, give me like, 3.2 hours; dealing w/ shipping issues w/ a vendor. Will still need an addr to send to
2020-08-04T21:49:25 0 <xmrscott[m]> Perfect way to test out Firefox Relay
2020-08-04T21:49:37 0 <needmoney90> ill get one set up in a bit
2020-08-04T21:52:02 0 <needmoney90> Oh interesting - Are you guys aware that the zcash light wallet defaults to displaying your zaddress?
2020-08-04T21:52:08 0 <needmoney90> It takes an extra click to get the taddress
2020-08-04T21:52:18 0 <needmoney90> That makes me happy
2020-08-04T21:52:37 0 <needmoney90> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/SfHzZscY/image.png
2020-08-04T21:52:54 0 <needmoney90> xmrscott: t1YSMT1y3U6QsHB242ffkyRL8ki8JmtDShP
2020-08-04T21:53:12 0 <needmoney90> I would give the zaddress, but it kinda has to start in a taddress for puzzle purposes
2020-08-04T21:54:59 0 <dsc_> nice puzzle though
2020-08-04T21:55:04 0 <needmoney90> :)
2020-08-04T21:55:10 0 <needmoney90> I'll have a few puzzles of different difficulties for each coin, obv
2020-08-04T21:55:19 0 <dsc_> yeah
2020-08-04T21:56:09 0 <needmoney90> And before anyone accuses me of doing this to make fun of other coins, I'm also including monero attacks :p
2020-08-04T21:56:22 0 <needmoney90> we don't get a free pass just because we're the best around
2020-08-04T22:03:13 0 <asymptotically> petition to change eve->alice->bob->eve to nm90->asymptotically
2020-08-04T22:19:57 0 <Inge-> I can already envision the crypto-media headlines: "Moneros untraceability broken at defcon"
2020-08-04T22:20:19 0 <needmoney90> we literally have a show called Breaking Monero
2020-08-04T22:20:30 0 <needmoney90> that talks about all the stuff that breaks us
2020-08-04T22:20:42 0 <needmoney90> we were doing that well before defcon :D
2020-08-04T22:34:49 0 <sarang> October 31, eh? https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/i3ivo6/add_to_your_calendar_monero_xmr_event_clsag_live/
2020-08-04T22:34:49 0 <monerobux> [REDDIT] Add to your calendar Monero (XMR) event: CLSAG Live on Mainnet - October 31, 2020 (https://kryptocal.com/event/54073/clsag-live-on-mainnet) to r/Monero | 14 points (100.0%) | 0 comments | Posted by cryptocalbot | Created at 2020-08-04 - 13:00:43
2020-08-04T22:34:55 0 <sarang> That didn't change from October 17, right?
2020-08-04T22:35:12 0 <sarang> I mean, CLSAG _will_ still be live on October 31, so it's technically correct =p
2020-08-04T22:35:16 0 <sarang> (the best kind of correct)
2020-08-04T22:38:04 0 <xmrscott[m]> badbot
2020-08-04T22:42:00 0 <Inge-> I know, I know. Cryptomedia is what cryptomedia does though.
2020-08-05T00:21:14 0 <kinghat[m]> yikes:
2020-08-05T00:21:14 0 <kinghat[m]> https://twitter.com/SVNewsAlerts/status/1290753501598027778
2020-08-05T00:21:14 0 <kinghat[m]> https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1290676318871445505
2020-08-05T00:39:49 0 <xmrscott[m]> needmoney90: Isn't there something like Changelly, but w/o the KYC/email registration BS?
2020-08-05T00:45:30 0 <xmrscott[m]> Ah, MorphToken is what I was thinking of
2020-08-05T00:46:00 0 <xmrscott[m]> They don't support ZEC for better or worse
2020-08-05T00:49:29 0 <sarang> Not even transparent?
2020-08-05T00:51:32 0 <xmrscott[m]> Not even transparent
2020-08-05T00:51:58 0 <xmrscott[m]> Limited to BTC, ETH,XMR, LTC,Dash, and BCH
2020-08-05T00:53:55 0 <dsc_> morphtoken, changenow, tradeogre
2020-08-05T00:54:09 0 <dsc_> oh for ZEC
2020-08-05T00:56:29 0 <xmrscott[m]> As a sidenote, do not recommend Simple Swap now; they ate my moniez
2020-08-05T01:29:28 0 <xmrscott[m]> needmoney90: Don't spend it all in one place. https://explorer.zcha.in/accounts/t1YSMT1y3U6QsHB242ffkyRL8ki8JmtDShP
2020-08-05T01:30:12 0 <needmoney90> thank you :)
2020-08-05T01:30:21 0 * needmoney90 spends it in a traceable way
2020-08-05T03:03:24 0 <sgp_> needmoney90: I'm super looking forward to this :)
2020-08-05T03:04:50 0 <sgp_> Add the FB to the list of services that needs a dedicated maintainer https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/i3uatl/does_anyone_know_someone_in_control_of_the_monero/
2020-08-05T03:04:52 0 <monerobux> [REDDIT] Does anyone know someone in control of the monero facebook page? It is reinforcing every worst stereotype about cryptocurrency and might well be the main way that some people are exposed to the Monero brand (https://i.imgur.com/BcM60d3.png) to r/Monero | 23 points (84.0%) | 6 comments | Posted by asrtartaass3332323 | Created at 2020-08-04 - 23:27:17
2020-08-05T05:27:07 0 <needmoney90> So I got a PM from an exchange
2020-08-05T05:27:11 0 <needmoney90> and for once
2020-08-05T05:27:16 0 <needmoney90> its very cool
2020-08-05T05:27:17 0 <needmoney90> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/exxMlQPi/image.png
2020-08-05T05:27:53 0 <needmoney90> seems that changenow is donating 0.4% of volume that goes through their monero exchange to the devs (still uncertain how)
2020-08-05T05:41:09 0 <niocbrrrrrr> bitmonero hmmm
2020-08-05T05:42:42 0 <niocbrrrrrr> I would imagine that they would send to the general fund
2020-08-05T05:44:23 0 <niocbrrrrrr> I have no idea but someone mentioned that their exchange rate is not very good
2020-08-05T05:52:26 0 * needmoney90 shrugs
2020-08-05T05:52:44 0 <needmoney90> They're freely donating a portion of proceeds, regardless of their exchange rate
2020-08-05T05:52:45 0 <needmoney90> thats neat
2020-08-05T06:19:44 0 <xmrscott[m]> Yeah, the more funding can be decentralized, the better off the project/ecosystem is
2020-08-05T07:26:51 0 <ErCiccione> What if the company won't absorb "#monero-community"? I think most of the problems would be solved if you would just use a name which is not "Monero community workgroup" and not include some of the assets you want to absorb.
2020-08-05T07:28:12 0 <ErCiccione> I don't see why it must be either #monero-community will be incorporated in the company or other people will run these meetings. Why must be like that? Can't the company just be a different entity on its own that provides those services (jitsi, youtube stuff, etch)?
2020-08-05T07:29:06 0 <ErCiccione> I don't understand why you want a gerarchy to be so defined (i really don't like the notion that is keep being pushed: we are the leaders, you are community members) for the community workgroup
2020-08-05T07:29:17 0 <ErCiccione> can't those be two parallels things?
2020-08-05T07:29:41 0 <ErCiccione> without one absorbing the other. I really don't see the need of that if the main goal of this company is to make easier to pay bills
2020-08-05T07:32:51 0 <ErCiccione> You want to have a better way to pay bills/taxes and maybe grow in something more structured. Sure, go ahead. Just don't absorbe the existent structure with the only reason "we are the leaders of that structure, so we decide its destiny". That mindset will only create conflicts, as we are seeing.
2020-08-05T07:36:35 0 <ErCiccione> Also, the fact that these intentions weren't discussed at all with the community is quite bad and shows again the mentality "we are the leaders, we decide how to move forward". You cannot really expect people to be happy about this move, that's why you are getting a lot of pushbacks.
2020-08-05T07:37:19 0 <fluffypony> so then setup a company that provides services to the workgroup
2020-08-05T07:37:26 0 <fluffypony> and if the workgroup doesn't like it then they don't have to use the company?
2020-08-05T07:37:36 0 <ErCiccione> exactly
2020-08-05T07:37:44 0 <ErCiccione> the company and the group don't have to be the same thing
2020-08-05T07:37:48 0 <ErCiccione> *workgroup
2020-08-05T07:38:01 0 <xmrscott[m]> They're not
2020-08-05T07:38:20 0 <ErCiccione> they are not in theory but they would be in practice
2020-08-05T07:38:57 0 <xmrscott[m]> I mean, not really. #monero-community would continue to be a meta of the other workgroups
2020-08-05T07:39:18 0 <ErCiccione> yeah, but technically is an asset of the company. Why is that necessary?
2020-08-05T07:39:31 0 <xmrscott[m]> It's not though
2020-08-05T07:39:52 0 <xmrscott[m]> Literally anything #monero-* is 'owned' by Core/Freenode admins
2020-08-05T07:40:23 0 <ErCiccione> Then you agree with me listing it as an asset of the company doesn't make sense
2020-08-05T07:41:08 0 <xmrscott[m]> Maybe I missed it, but please quote either the draft or the backscroll wherein it's listed as a resource
2020-08-05T07:41:19 0 <geonic> good to know that fluffypony and luigi1111 are of the same opinion. I hope they are heard.
2020-08-05T07:42:26 0 <xmrscott[m]> It was stated multiple times that the LLC doesn't own any assets
2020-08-05T07:42:42 0 <geonic> the LLC should be in service of the workgroup, not the other way around.
2020-08-05T07:42:50 1 <fluffypony> geonic: in fairness, I'm just asking questions, I don't actually know much about what's being proposed
2020-08-05T07:43:11 0 <xmrscott[m]> <needmoney90 "there aren't any assets"> See: ^
2020-08-05T07:43:16 0 <ErCiccione> xmrscott: #monero-community is listed under the resources/assets in the gist sgp published
2020-08-05T07:43:22 0 <ErCiccione> i don't have it handy now, i'm going by memory
2020-08-05T07:43:33 0 <geonic> https://gist.github.com/SamsungGalaxyPlayer/77932db05ada82012d4f86bc862c17fb
2020-08-05T07:44:14 0 <ErCiccione> xmrscott: Well, that's not true. There is an entire chapter named "Assets, Services, and Responsible Parties"
2020-08-05T07:44:27 0 <ErCiccione> "The following are assets and services provided by the MCW. They are maintained by the listed responsible parties, which can be committees."
2020-08-05T07:44:34 0 <fluffypony> tks
2020-08-05T07:44:40 0 <ErCiccione> the first listed asset is #monero-community
2020-08-05T07:44:59 0 <xmrscott[m]> "Asset or Service"
2020-08-05T07:45:08 0 <xmrscott[m]> Or Service being the keyword here
2020-08-05T07:45:37 0 <geonic> a chat room is not a service by any definition :) it's digital real estate.
2020-08-05T07:45:50 0 <ErCiccione> how can be #monero-community a service?
2020-08-05T07:45:53 0 <xmrscott[m]> "Meeting Committee"
2020-08-05T07:45:57 0 <ErCiccione> and why list assets if there are none?
2020-08-05T07:46:13 0 <xmrscott[m]> Its in reference to the bi-weekly meetings that sgp/rehrar typically heads
2020-08-05T07:46:24 0 <geonic> that is the service, yes.
2020-08-05T07:46:52 0 <ErCiccione> xmrscott: Also "or", is not the keyword at all. As i quoted: ""The following are assets and services provided by the MCW. They are maintained by the listed responsible parties, which can be committees.""
2020-08-05T07:47:08 0 <ErCiccione> so saying there are no assets is simply not true or somebody messed up the terminology there
2020-08-05T07:47:19 0 <xmrscott[m]> It's quite literally the column header
2020-08-05T07:48:54 0 <xmrscott[m]> Individual items are 'assets' or 'services', the set itself consists of assets and services
2020-08-05T07:49:28 0 <ErCiccione> If that's really the case i hope the terminology will be clarified, because right now i don't believe you are right
2020-08-05T07:49:41 0 <xmrscott[m]> I mean, it's basic set theory
2020-08-05T07:50:13 0 <xmrscott[m]> You have a bag of marbles. Marbles can be red or blue. The bag is a set of red and blue marbles
2020-08-05T07:51:26 0 <ErCiccione> But that conflict with the description right on top of the table that says "[...]They are maintained by the listed responsible parties, which can be committees"
2020-08-05T07:51:58 0 <ErCiccione> That clearly implys some kind of ownership, even if not practical (since as we said, they cannot own #monero-community)
2020-08-05T07:52:14 0 <ErCiccione> Anyway, without going too much into the semantics
2020-08-05T07:53:15 0 <ErCiccione> my proposal still stands: clearly separate the workgroup and the company. With one provifing services to the other (at this point i think we can discard the initial notion that was pushed "it's only to pay the bills")
2020-08-05T07:54:36 0 <xmrscott[m]> Bills or services, this is a nuance that is perhaps lost
2020-08-05T07:54:45 0 <xmrscott[m]> Let's take a Flarum forum as basic example
2020-08-05T07:55:19 0 <xmrscott[m]> Sure, you have to pay the monthly bills for the VPS, domain etc. However, you do need people to play sysadmin, moderators, etc
2020-08-05T07:56:09 0 <xmrscott[m]> However, it's primarily to pay the bills
2020-08-05T07:56:19 0 <xmrscott[m]> As I understand it
2020-08-05T07:56:27 0 <ErCiccione> Sure, the company sounds like a good fit for this purpose
2020-08-05T07:57:06 0 <ErCiccione> That would be the company providing a service to the community workgroup.
2020-08-05T07:57:14 0 <ErCiccione> I don't see any problem with that
2020-08-05T07:57:20 0 <xmrscott[m]> Ok. Yay.
2020-08-05T07:57:36 0 <xmrscott[m]> FWIW, the LLC name is not locked in stone.
2020-08-05T07:57:52 0 <ErCiccione> Why yay. That's literally my proposal 😛 be an external entity, not absorbe the existing workgroup and transform it into a company
2020-08-05T07:57:52 0 <xmrscott[m]> Rehrar said early on that they'd probably change the name to avoid misunderstanding
2020-08-05T07:58:11 0 <xmrscott[m]> And that is quite literally their proposal
2020-08-05T07:58:21 0 <ErCiccione> Yeah that was my proposal too :P
2020-08-05T07:58:39 0 <geonic> their proposal reads very differently to me
2020-08-05T07:58:41 0 <xmrscott[m]> People seem to have misunderstood the #monero-community aspect and gotten stuck on that
2020-08-05T07:59:01 0 <xmrscott[m]> It is only in reference to the bi-weekly meetings
2020-08-05T07:59:18 0 <ErCiccione> No. That's not true. It was said from the beginning that the company is made "to give a proper structure to the workgroup"
2020-08-05T07:59:27 0 <ErCiccione> not to work alongside it
2020-08-05T08:01:08 0 <ErCiccione> I think there is a lot of confusion because differnet and opposite things have been said. After the feedback i hope the company board will come out with a better proposal that clarifys misunderstandings if there were any and clearly state the structure they want to adopt and what's the relation with the community workgroup
2020-08-05T08:01:42 0 <ErCiccione> i remind you xmrscot that sgp stated that the company name could be different, but they will still act as "monero communtiy workgroup", that doesn't sound like separing the two things/
2020-08-05T08:02:28 0 <ErCiccione> forgot a t: xmrscott
2020-08-05T08:02:48 0 <xmrscott[m]> So let's looks at the definition on the official website: The Monero Community Workgroup is one of the largest and oldest groups of people in the Monero community. It is focused on providing essential services, including community meetings, coffee chats, and more. It connects the various, wide aspects and projects of the Monero community together.
2020-08-05T08:03:32 0 <xmrscott[m]> (https://www.communityworkgroup.org/home)
2020-08-05T08:04:31 0 <xmrscott[m]> What specifically is the issue w/ giving that a formal legal entity?
2020-08-05T08:05:08 0 <midipoet> does it actually need to be an LLC?
2020-08-05T08:05:09 0 <xmrscott[m]> I'll give the community meeting as a freebie because the regular people who head it have never asked for help really for someone to take over, but that's about it
2020-08-05T08:05:25 0 <midipoet> or is "some LLC" needed to pay the bills for the MCW?
2020-08-05T08:05:34 0 <midipoet> there is a big difference between the two options
2020-08-05T08:05:48 0 <midipoet> imo
2020-08-05T08:05:57 0 <xmrscott[m]> I'm not a lawyer, so can't speak to LLC vs some other legal entity being the best choice
2020-08-05T08:06:09 0 <midipoet> that's not the question
2020-08-05T08:06:20 0 <midipoet> the question is whether the MCW needs to be a legal entity
2020-08-05T08:06:29 0 <midipoet> or a legal entity is required to pay the bills for the MCW
2020-08-05T08:06:45 0 <ErCiccione> exactly. That's what i mean with separing the two things
2020-08-05T08:06:56 0 <midipoet> ErCiccione: yes, i agree with you
2020-08-05T08:06:59 0 <geonic> xmrscott I hope we can now agree that we are talking about different proposals
2020-08-05T08:07:17 0 <midipoet> i think NOT separating the two things is antithetical to the MCW
2020-08-05T08:07:44 0 <midipoet> but then again, i didn't create the MCW, so maybe that was always envisioned
2020-08-05T08:08:16 0 <geonic> I doubt it would've taken 3 years if that was the plan all along.
2020-08-05T08:08:45 0 <ErCiccione> i don't think that's the case midipoet. Since the reason for creating the company is "we are getting bigger and we need to pay bills"
2020-08-05T08:09:19 0 <xmrscott[m]> It's worth noting that the existing things are all owned by sgp, rehrar, nm90, etc. I have no issue w/ them bundling what they own for a variety of reasons into something managed by a legal entity
2020-08-05T08:10:14 0 <xmrscott[m]> The fact that they are fine with renaming suggests they view what is in the proposal as different from what people consider MRW
2020-08-05T08:10:27 0 <ErCiccione> xmrscott: Again, that't not a problem at all. I feel we are swinging from an argument to another
2020-08-05T08:10:41 0 <midipoet> xmrscott[m]: there is a lot of truth in that point and this maybe the sticking point
2020-08-05T08:11:08 0 <ErCiccione> they are fine with renaming <- as i already said. Sgp stated it was ok to rename the company, but they will still act as "monero community workgroup". We clearly need clarifications.
2020-08-05T08:11:19 0 <midipoet> so the issue is that a legal entity is required to pay bills, and maintain/own assets
2020-08-05T08:11:22 0 <geonic> I believe they're fine with renaming as long as the LLC is the "parent company". i.e. the Alphabet to MCW's Google.
2020-08-05T08:11:49 0 <xmrscott[m]> They will continue to oversee the resources they already oversee, namely Nextcloud, etc
2020-08-05T08:11:50 0 <geonic> MWG*
2020-08-05T08:12:26 0 <xmrscott[m]> That's what they mean by act as MCW
2020-08-05T08:12:35 0 <xmrscott[m]> Per the earlier website definition
2020-08-05T08:12:41 0 <midipoet> to be honest, i was more concerned with the whole self appointed board, no line of redress, and no line for new board members that weren't voted in for by the board. i mean if ZCash did something similar, what would we say to that?
2020-08-05T08:12:53 0 <midipoet> we might laugh a little.
2020-08-05T08:12:57 0 <xmrscott[m]> As I see it
2020-08-05T08:12:59 0 <ErCiccione> xmrscott: Come one you cannot interpretate their statements for us and tell us you are right and we are wrong :P
2020-08-05T08:13:27 0 <ErCiccione> let's have some clarifications so no interpretations will be needed
2020-08-05T08:13:28 0 <xmrscott[m]> Am I not allowed to interpret what they wrote just like you?
2020-08-05T08:13:46 0 <ErCiccione> wut?
2020-08-05T08:13:48 0 <xmrscott[m]> I'm simply showing another person can interpret it anotherway
2020-08-05T08:14:26 0 <ErCiccione> Sure. That's your interpretation and i believe that according to the statements read until now, it's wrong.
2020-08-05T08:15:15 0 <xmrscott[m]> midipoet: Yes I totally understand. I was admittedly a little taken back by that as well.
2020-08-05T08:15:35 0 <xmrscott[m]> However people are free to spin up whatever community resources they want
2020-08-05T08:16:07 0 <xmrscott[m]> If someone hates the Jitsi instance and wants to pay more for better servers, more Nextcloud storage etc, they are free to do so
2020-08-05T08:16:25 0 <xmrscott[m]> Is how I've choosen to take it
2020-08-05T08:17:50 0 <xmrscott[m]> Anything operated by the LLC or co-op or whatever it ends up being is completely tangent to the 'official' resources. Even if choose to believe it's a long con by them, they can't really damage the heart of the project with said tangent resources
2020-08-05T08:18:10 0 <midipoet> xmrscott[m]: yeah, i suppose this is true, hence the repeated communications yesterday of something to the strain of"if you don't like it, make your own"
2020-08-05T08:18:18 0 <midipoet> there is a lot of truth to that, i suppose
2020-08-05T08:18:41 0 <midipoet> i wouldn't have maintained that position myself, but maybe i am a pacifist.
2020-08-05T08:20:35 0 <xmrscott[m]>  * Anything operated by the LLC or co-op or whatever it ends up being is completely tangent to the 'official' resources. Even if one choses to believe it's a long con by them, they can't really damage the heart of the project with said tangent resources
2020-08-05T08:21:24 0 <xmrscott[m]> I mean, this has played out in so many ways across the past 4 years.
2020-08-05T08:24:19 0 <xmrscott[m]> For example, people were frustrated since at least 2016 about fluffy being the primary speaker only 'face' to the project despite being primarily a code maintainer. So people like sgp took a very proactive role in giving talks, building out other things like Coffee Chat. An LLC may not feel as cypherpunk, but what happens when, and I hate to use this example, but it's the best example I can think of,  the
2020-08-05T08:24:19 0 <xmrscott[m]> creator of a resource dies unexpectedly
2020-08-05T08:26:31 0 <xmrscott[m]> That account/domain may not come into control of someone within the community
2020-08-05T08:26:32 0 <xmrscott[m]> An LLC better gurantees that, and is arguably more decentralized than a single person
2020-08-05T08:26:33 0 <xmrscott[m]> BitcoinTalk forums is a great example of this I think
2020-08-05T08:26:34 0 <xmrscott[m]> I personally would prefer a Monero forum to be controlled legally by multiple people rather than a single person like Thermos or whatever their alias is
2020-08-05T08:27:33 0 <xmrscott[m]> Less subject to the whims of a benevolent tyrant gone mad
2020-08-05T08:27:48 0 <asymptotically> lol thermos
2020-08-05T08:29:12 0 <asymptotically> instead of spending his riches on big buildings or statues of himself, he's spending billions on new forum software that will never arrive
2020-08-05T08:31:57 0 * xmrscott[m] goes off to grab some z's
2020-08-05T12:52:08 0 <sgp_> Lots of conversation last night on the same topics we already discussed in detail
2020-08-05T12:52:25 0 <sgp_> The three of us very much provide the "service" of biweekly meetings
2020-08-05T12:53:51 0 <sgp_> We provide all these things and want to organize how we do it and allow more faces in. I genuinely don't see that as a problem
2020-08-05T13:10:36 0 <sgp_> in many ways, the "fight" over this channel shows the problem; the Monero community workgroup is not and simply cannot be an IRC channel only
2020-08-05T13:20:30 0 <sgp_> and this IRC channel isn't changing materially, so you're good there
2020-08-05T13:22:00 0 <sgp_> Feedback on Monero Revuo: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/i40tg9/revuo_suggestions_concerns_complaints/
2020-08-05T13:22:01 0 <monerobux> [REDDIT] Revuo Suggestions / Concerns / Complaints? (self.Monero) | 11 points (87.0%) | 1 comments | Posted by Rehrar | Created at 2020-08-05 - 07:20:52
2020-08-05T13:31:27 0 <sethsimmons> Thanks for sharing that, I've added a couple comments
2020-08-05T14:32:40 0 <ErCiccione> sgp_: Since the conversation is closed on your side and the intention of transforming the workgroup into a company is clear (I get from the silence that the idea of having a company providing services to the workgroup as many suggested as been discarded too), i don't see any point in commenting further, i agree. I will wait to see the public announcement of the final form of this company to state my conclusions.
2020-08-05T14:34:00 0 <ErCiccione> And by that i mean that there have been a lot of conflicting statements and unanswered questions. Makes sense to see where this thing is going before commenting further.
2020-08-05T17:07:23 0 <fluffypony> https://mobile.twitter.com/ZenGo/status/1291003566346457090
2020-08-05T17:10:30 0 <Mumuks[m]> fluffypony: if I had a twatter account, I would vote
2020-08-05T17:10:37 0 <fluffypony> lol
2020-08-05T17:12:49 0 <dEBRUYNE> fluffypony: Are they well known? I've never heard of them
2020-08-05T17:12:57 0 <fluffypony> never heard of them
2020-08-05T17:13:01 0 <fluffypony> just cross-posting
2020-08-05T17:13:15 0 <dEBRUYNE> Oki
2020-08-05T17:24:02 0 <sgp_> I've never heard either
2020-08-05T17:24:19 0 <sgp_> we shall rename this channel to #monero-brigading or #monero-vote-manipulation
2020-08-05T17:24:59 0 <asymptotically> new keyless wallet! never worry about losing your funds again, we store it in plaintext on the blockchain so that it can always be easily recovered
2020-08-05T17:29:58 0 <sgp_> asymptotically: lol
2020-08-05T17:31:18 0 <kinghat[m]> the goal of incorporating is so things can be paid for, correct?
2020-08-05T17:32:02 0 <sgp_> kinghat[m]: really the main goal is to assist with everything we wrote out in the doc
2020-08-05T17:32:15 0 <sgp_> but we need to pay for things to make that happen, yes
2020-08-05T17:32:50 0 <kinghat[m]> sorry im behind, is there a link to that doc?
2020-08-05T17:34:42 0 <sgp_> sent
2020-08-05T17:35:29 0 <sgp_> for the Monero Meme competition this Friday, make sure you have LibreOffice installed so I can send templates in Draw
2020-08-05T17:35:34 0 <sgp_> that will hopefully speed things up
2020-08-05T19:38:21 0 <geonic> sgp_ nah, just rename it to #monero-community-LLC :)
2020-08-05T19:39:06 0 <midipoet> To be fair, there is probably a good meme in this somewhere.
2020-08-05T19:39:40 0 <midipoet> Wee three kings or something like that
2020-08-05T19:50:19 0 <geonic> waiting for Core to form their LLC next. I think they've put in a lot of work over the years and an LLC structure would benefit Monero as a whole. it would also simplify keeping rehrar on salary.
2020-08-05T19:51:43 0 <rehrar> Die mad
2020-08-05T19:52:19 0 <geonic> mad at what? I think Core could hire more people if they were an LLC and we could be even more productive.
2020-08-05T19:52:52 0 <rehrar> Your plausible deniability is completely transparent, dude. Nobody is fooled.
2020-08-05T19:53:10 0 <geonic> huh?
2020-08-05T19:54:16 0 <rehrar> Lol. You're telling me that you really, honestly think core should make an LLC? And you're not being sarcastic?
2020-08-05T19:54:29 1 <sgp_> geonic: let's not mix up Core and three people who aren't a part of the Core team
2020-08-05T19:54:37 0 <jwinterm> not sure if LLC allows pseudononymous board members
2020-08-05T19:55:04 0 <sgp_> at least not easily in practice
2020-08-05T19:56:34 0 <geonic> rehrar - since when does sarcasm require plausible deniability? you're framing it like it's a crime to jest with the three kings
2020-08-05T19:56:48 0 <sgp_> lol
2020-08-05T19:56:57 1 <sgp_> geonic: please take it down a notch
2020-08-05T19:57:02 0 <sgp_> actually several
2020-08-05T19:57:26 0 <sgp_> no one reasonably thinks jest is a "crime", cmon
2020-08-05T19:58:55 0 <sgp_> you're trying to compare two obviously dissimilar things (Core with others). This workgroup never has officially represented Monero
2020-08-05T19:59:07 0 <geonic> I propose that we take it down a notch with the legal terms. at least until you've renamed the channel to -LLC
2020-08-05T19:59:17 0 <sgp_> nah
2020-08-05T19:59:39 0 <geonic> sgp_ you wield a lot of soft power in the community. let's not pretend like the three of you are some random individuals.
2020-08-05T20:00:07 0 <geonic> pretty sure that most community members know your nicknames but not those of all 7 core members.
2020-08-05T20:00:25 0 <geonic> so they're not as dissimilar as you think
2020-08-05T20:00:38 0 <sgp_> maybe that's because we have done all the work for all these community resources you use and benefit from all the time
2020-08-05T20:00:49 0 <sgp_> s/all/a lot of
2020-08-05T20:00:49 0 <monerobux> sgp_ meant to say: maybe that's because we have done a lot of the work for all these community resources you use and benefit from all the time
2020-08-05T20:06:43 0 <geonic> are you saying Core hasn't done a lot of the work that we benefit from all the time? if anything, you're drawing an even closer parallel.
2020-08-05T20:26:15 0 <sgp_> it's absolutely not the same
2020-08-05T20:30:11 0 <geonic> why? were Core elected? or did they just roll up their sleeves and do the work that the community has benefited from? the three of you are basically saying, "if you don't like the way we're running things, fork it from us". so enlighten me how they're different.
2020-08-05T20:39:40 0 <sgp_> I'm not going to describe how we are different than Core. If you don't see the difference, then so be it
2020-08-05T20:41:58 0 <geonic> ah, the old “If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry.”
2020-08-05T20:42:57 0 <sethsimmons> What is your problem dude? You’re literally just trolling and being sarcastic with everyone.
2020-08-05T20:43:12 0 <sethsimmons> It’s not helpful, and if you have real concerns discuss them like an adult.
2020-08-05T20:43:36 0 <geonic> sethsimmons if you have nothing to add to the conversation, I'd prefer if you kept your comments to yourself.
2020-08-05T20:43:44 0 <sethsimmons> Coating everything in sarcasm and vitriol is unhelpful, demeaning, and has no place in real conversations.
2020-08-05T20:44:03 0 <sethsimmons> I have added many things, they just didn’t annoy people and I’ve said my piece so I’ve let it be.
2020-08-05T20:44:19 0 <sethsimmons> I’m not here to waste people’s time and demean those doing the majority of the work.
2020-08-05T20:44:31 0 <sethsimmons> But I’m sick and tired of you wasting everyone else’s time.
2020-08-05T20:44:42 0 <geonic> how am I demeaning them if I'm saying their status is high enough to be compared to that of the Core team?
2020-08-05T20:45:12 0 <sethsimmons> Every sentence is coated in sarcasm and is written in a rude and demeaning way, that is clear to everyone in here.
2020-08-05T20:45:32 0 <sethsimmons> If you have real opinions and thoughts share them like an adult in a meaningful way.
2020-08-05T20:45:38 0 <sethsimmons> You’re not helping anyone being a troll.
2020-08-05T20:45:50 0 <sethsimmons> Unless you just get off on it.
2020-08-05T20:45:57 0 <sethsimmons> Then I guess you’re at least helping yourself 🙃
2020-08-05T20:46:18 0 <sethsimmons> You can have contrarian opinions and share them in a way that’s constructive.
2020-08-05T20:46:28 0 <geonic> I wasn't speaking with you and I'm not engaging with you going forward. Please direct your comments elsewhere.
2020-08-05T20:46:45 0 <sethsimmons> Enjoy.
2020-08-05T20:47:05 0 <sethsimmons> Consider it speaking to everyone else in the room as a show of support 🙂
2020-08-05T20:48:39 0 <geonic> Back to the topic at hand. Justin, you're the face of the project in many ways that Core isn't.
2020-08-05T20:48:54 0 <geonic> http://convos.yantra.pw:3000/file/2/RR3vHDA1Cuw0ZXJN
2020-08-05T20:49:08 0 <geonic> Blockfolio Justin Ehrenhofer, Diego Salazar, xmrhaelan, binartyFate (want to delegate to marketing)
2020-08-05T20:49:12 0 <geonic> CoinGecko Beam Justin Ehrenhofer (want to delegate to marketing)
2020-08-05T20:49:17 0 <geonic> Delta Direct Justin Ehrenhofer (want to delegate to marketing)
2020-08-05T20:49:44 0 <sethsimmons> That just means he controls the new pushes to those services, it doesn’t even have his name attached.
2020-08-05T20:49:50 0 <midipoet> I sort of do wonder why it's all delegation. Doesn't delegation imply hierarchy?
2020-08-05T20:49:52 0 <geonic> I don't see why you're asking to be held to a lower code of conduct than Core
2020-08-05T20:49:54 0 <sethsimmons> It comes across as Monero the entity.
2020-08-05T20:50:34 0 <sethsimmons> <midipoet "I sort of do wonder why it's all"> There is a hierarchy if they’re the ones doing/driving the majority of the work.
2020-08-05T20:50:58 0 <sethsimmons> They’re helping to craft the overall action items/objectives, and those of us spending less time (like me) are happy to be delegated to to spread the load.
2020-08-05T20:51:17 0 <sethsimmons> There doesn’t have to be some huge fear of a slight hierarchy
2020-08-05T20:51:31 0 <sethsimmons> The protocol needs near complete decentralization, work groups do not.
2020-08-05T20:51:44 0 <midipoet> I don't see it that way
2020-08-05T20:51:53 0 <sethsimmons> I’m not sure why people get so focused on needing every aspect of a community to be wholly decentralized.
2020-08-05T20:51:54 0 <midipoet> I always did things as I wanted to take responsibility for things
2020-08-05T20:52:02 0 <midipoet> And was afforded that responsibility
2020-08-05T20:52:03 0 <sethsimmons> That just means nothing gets done as we scale.
2020-08-05T20:52:16 0 <midipoet> I am talking from my own experience
2020-08-05T20:52:19 0 <midipoet> It's valid
2020-08-05T20:52:28 0 <sethsimmons> If they own the thing, and want to hand off the thing, the word for that is delegation.
2020-08-05T20:52:38 0 <midipoet> And I looked up delegation. It explicitly implies hierarchy
2020-08-05T20:52:43 0 <midipoet> As I thought
2020-08-05T20:53:17 0 <midipoet> So again, I wonder why the ethos is delegation
2020-08-05T20:53:40 0 <sethsimmons> They can change the wording if it makes you feel better.
2020-08-05T20:53:40 0 <midipoet> As opposed to "fostering a sense of shared responsibility" or some other such nonsense
2020-08-05T20:53:51 0 <sethsimmons> What’s a better word for spreading the workload you already do to other people?
2020-08-05T20:53:56 0 <midipoet> yes Seth. It's all about the wording. Silly me
2020-08-05T20:54:35 0 <sethsimmons> What’s a better way to phrase that?
2020-08-05T20:54:41 0 <sethsimmons> The same thing still has to happen
2020-08-05T20:54:48 0 <midipoet> Seth. They took on the work for themselves. It was a choice, as far as I see it. Some of it may not even need to be conducted.
2020-08-05T20:54:56 0 <midipoet> ie. I don't think Monero needs a Twitter
2020-08-05T20:55:05 0 <midipoet> I definitely don't think it's needs a Facebook
2020-08-05T20:55:20 0 <sethsimmons> It absolutely does need a Twitter, run by the community
2020-08-05T20:55:20 0 <midipoet> It also doesn't need a TikTok instasham or any other crap
2020-08-05T20:55:27 0 <midipoet> ok.
2020-08-05T20:55:28 0 <needmoney90> Facebook is actually an example here.
2020-08-05T20:55:31 0 <sethsimmons> Or you’re missing a LARGE swath of users and devs.
2020-08-05T20:55:33 0 <needmoney90> We dont run a facebook.
2020-08-05T20:55:36 0 <needmoney90> Some scammer set one up
2020-08-05T20:55:42 0 <needmoney90> and now we cant really do much except complain to them
2020-08-05T20:55:52 0 <needmoney90> and if it gets taken down, someone else will pop up claiming to be official
2020-08-05T20:55:56 0 <midipoet> needmoney90: exactly. We can't control everything
2020-08-05T20:56:05 0 <midipoet> Do we get every Monero domain?
2020-08-05T20:56:16 0 <midipoet> Every possible Monero Twitter handle?
2020-08-05T20:56:16 0 <needmoney90> The community tends to try, when possible.
2020-08-05T20:57:02 0 <midipoet> needmoney90: what do you mean "when possible".
2020-08-05T20:57:11 0 <midipoet> There are thousands  possible
2020-08-05T20:57:14 0 <needmoney90> Its about people wanting an unofficial 'official' source for info on each platform.
2020-08-05T20:57:19 0 <needmoney90> And if we dont run one, someone else does.
2020-08-05T20:57:48 0 <needmoney90> If no good one exists, people go to bad ones.
2020-08-05T20:57:51 0 <needmoney90> They dont just stop
2020-08-05T20:58:03 0 <midipoet> you can't stop people doing bad
2020-08-05T20:58:10 0 <needmoney90> you can create a source thats trusted.
2020-08-05T20:58:13 0 <midipoet> And anyway, that's not the discussion
2020-08-05T20:58:15 0 <needmoney90> and point people there instead of nowhere
2020-08-05T20:58:22 0 <midipoet> I started a discussion about the need to delegate
2020-08-05T20:58:32 0 <needmoney90> A need to do exactly whats happening now
2020-08-05T20:58:49 0 <needmoney90> people come in, ask what they can do, and get passed off to various workgroups based on what they say they're good at
2020-08-05T20:58:50 0 <midipoet> You can still point people to trusted sources
2020-08-05T20:58:57 0 <needmoney90> thats literally what happens now
2020-08-05T20:58:58 0 <midipoet> We do it all the time, and don't own all of them
2020-08-05T20:59:01 0 <sethsimmons> I don’t really get what the SM point has to do with it
2020-08-05T20:59:01 0 <needmoney90> maybe thats 'hierarchy'
2020-08-05T20:59:02 0 <sethsimmons> What does that have to do with delegation?’
2020-08-05T20:59:02 0 <msavoritias[m]> <needmoney90 "and point people there instead o"> isn't that centralization though?
2020-08-05T20:59:12 0 <needmoney90> we are a source for knowing where to go
2020-08-05T20:59:20 0 <needmoney90> they can clearly choose anywhere to do anything they want
2020-08-05T20:59:29 0 <needmoney90> we are one option for giving direction
2020-08-05T20:59:31 0 <sethsimmons> I was delegated part of owning the MCW twitter, its a good way to do things .shrug
2020-08-05T20:59:51 0 <sethsimmons> If I had come up with something new that needed to be done I would have just done it
2020-08-05T21:00:02 0 <needmoney90> its a central place to get info for where to go or what to do, of potentially many
2020-08-05T21:00:04 0 <midipoet> needmoney90: we don't need to own all the trusted sources. The WHOLE point is to ensure that trust moves outwards into the community organically
2020-08-05T21:00:05 0 <needmoney90> 'centralized'
2020-08-05T21:00:07 0 <sethsimmons> But the three OGs of MCW have done almost everything thats core to building a community, or started to
2020-08-05T21:00:17 0 <sethsimmons> So that has to be handed off to new people, i.e. delegated.
2020-08-05T21:00:29 0 <needmoney90> we don't want control over most of it lol
2020-08-05T21:00:38 0 <sethsimmons> Yeah no kidding lol
2020-08-05T21:00:51 0 <sethsimmons> Can’t imagine managing all the platforms/sources involved ATM
2020-08-05T21:00:57 0 <needmoney90> sgp_ is a wizard
2020-08-05T21:01:03 0 <midipoet> needmoney90: I don't doubt that the motives are benevolent, as I know all of you
2020-08-05T21:01:13 0 <sethsimmons> Between 3 people, I’m excited to see more of that get spread out
2020-08-05T21:02:03 0 <sgp_> I'm not here to complain about all the work I do; I however want to delegate it so we can keep growing
2020-08-05T21:02:05 0 <sethsimmons> How could the “delegation”, for lack of a better word, be done better midipoet?
2020-08-05T21:02:33 0 <needmoney90> never give up control, benevolent dictator for life by force of shame
2020-08-05T21:02:36 0 <midipoet> But if you can't sit back and say, yeah, ok maybe we shouldn't have appointed ourselves as the board, or maybe we should have thought about the name, or about the ownership structure, or about the line of redress, or about how the "formalisation" would be perceived....
2020-08-05T21:03:09 0 <midipoet> sgp_: maybe there won't be people to delegate to, as they don't want to be delegated at!
2020-08-05T21:03:18 0 <midipoet> Maybe that's why people find it hard to stay around
2020-08-05T21:03:22 0 <sethsimmons> lol delegated at
2020-08-05T21:03:30 0 <midipoet> Maybe that's why we only have X amount of people...
2020-08-05T21:03:38 0 <sethsimmons> How else could it be done better?
2020-08-05T21:03:39 0 <midipoet> That's what I am getting at...
2020-08-05T21:03:55 0 <sethsimmons> Instead of just shooting down the proposal, how could it be handled better to pull in all of these people waiting to contribute?
2020-08-05T21:04:06 0 <midipoet> There is a certain perception about Monero (good or bad). LLCs, boards, hierarchy are not it (imo)
2020-08-05T21:04:22 0 <sethsimmons> What is a better way to do it?
2020-08-05T21:04:24 0 <sgp_> MyMonero is a company and it has Monero in the name, is that bad?
2020-08-05T21:04:33 0 <sethsimmons> Make a clear proposal on how to do it in a better way than the proposed way.
2020-08-05T21:04:36 0 <needmoney90> A core team member runs it too
2020-08-05T21:04:40 0 <midipoet> I don't know. How did it turn out!!
2020-08-05T21:04:45 0 <geonic> it's not bad. it's been a company since inception
2020-08-05T21:04:51 0 <sethsimmons> It seems like a good overall proposal to me, with some small changes to LLC name etc.
2020-08-05T21:05:06 0 <geonic> it didn't transition from a community-run project to a company without community input.
2020-08-05T21:05:31 0 <sethsimmons> An LLC being used to pay bills != MCW becoming a company lmao
2020-08-05T21:05:46 0 <sgp_> you are all now employees, deal with it 😎
2020-08-05T21:05:57 0 <Inge-> I want a raise.
2020-08-05T21:06:00 0 <sgp_> shit does that mean I need to pay you
2020-08-05T21:06:12 0 <needmoney90> Inge- okay. 10% raise. Don't come asking for more soon though.
2020-08-05T21:06:15 0 <sethsimmons> I would like a 10% raise on my 0XMR salary
2020-08-05T21:06:20 0 <Inge-> Harrumph
2020-08-05T21:06:22 0 <geonic> I need to see the health benefits first.
2020-08-05T21:06:38 0 <needmoney90> independent contractors
2020-08-05T21:06:41 0 <needmoney90> or interns
2020-08-05T21:06:43 0 <needmoney90> take your pick
2020-08-05T21:06:54 0 <midipoet> sgp_: it's not necessarily about the name (even though I do worry about it, but I am not a lawyer). It's about the ideology. I can't say I am right. But I can certainly say what I feel isn't right about it. I could also be completely off base. it seems others have similar concerns, but maybe we are all off base.
2020-08-05T21:06:59 0 <sgp_> unpaid interns are so unethical lol. side rant we don't need to go on
2020-08-05T21:07:35 0 <sethsimmons> <midipoet "sgp_: it's not necessarily about"> What would you like to see done instead?
2020-08-05T21:07:43 0 <endogenic> sgp_ interns are paid in more than cash
2020-08-05T21:07:52 0 <endogenic> some people have something to learn from teams etc
2020-08-05T21:07:54 0 <needmoney90> They get some exposure too
2020-08-05T21:07:54 0 <msavoritias[m]> why not a non-profit instead?
2020-08-05T21:07:56 0 <sgp_> endogenic: yeah but 99.99% it's bullshit
2020-08-05T21:07:57 0 <endogenic> and there are willing teachers
2020-08-05T21:08:03 0 <endogenic> citation pls
2020-08-05T21:08:12 0 <needmoney90> msavoritias: A nonprofit...LLC?
2020-08-05T21:08:12 0 <sethsimmons> Non-profit takes a ton of work/time delay up front apparently msavoritias
2020-08-05T21:08:32 0 <needmoney90> ignore me
2020-08-05T21:08:40 0 <needmoney90> I dont know the legal stuff thats someone else's part
2020-08-05T21:09:11 0 <midipoet> sethsimmons: just have some entity/company that pays the bills. That's it. I don't see why anything more is needed in terms of formalisation?
2020-08-05T21:09:23 0 <msavoritias[m]> <endogenic "some people have something to le"> leaning doesn't bring food on the table for interns though. Its basically free labor
2020-08-05T21:09:27 0 <needmoney90> we need an entity for payments, and to aggregate 'ownership' of various handles above individuals, because people leave or get disinterested or (please no) die.
2020-08-05T21:09:27 0 <sgp_> endogenic: off-topic, no need to actually discuss
2020-08-05T21:09:28 0 <msavoritias[m]> <sethsimmons "Non-profit takes a ton of work/t"> seems more ethical than an LLC
2020-08-05T21:09:29 0 <endogenic> sgp fluffy and i put a ton of time and money into mymonero knowing it would only produce open source software rather than revs during much of my tenure
2020-08-05T21:09:34 0 <sethsimmons> <midipoet "sethsimmons: just have some enti"> Like an LLC?
2020-08-05T21:09:48 0 <endogenic> when other projects focus on monero
2020-08-05T21:09:51 0 <msavoritias[m]> or a cooperative.
2020-08-05T21:09:53 0 <sgp_> (not your fault, my fault for bringing it up)
2020-08-05T21:09:54 0 <endogenic> dedicating brand to it
2020-08-05T21:09:54 0 <sethsimmons> And then spread the existing/new work among people, via something like delegation?
2020-08-05T21:09:56 0 <endogenic> that's a good thing
2020-08-05T21:10:44 0 <niocbrrrrrr> how does btc handle this?
2020-08-05T21:10:56 0 <sgp_> not mcw != monero
2020-08-05T21:10:59 0 <sgp_> *note
2020-08-05T21:11:07 0 <sethsimmons> They don’t have an community workgroup AFAIK
2020-08-05T21:11:10 0 <sgp_> like blockstream != btc
2020-08-05T21:11:25 0 <sethsimmons> It’s all organic, but we aren’t afforded the luxury of first movers advantage/network effect.
2020-08-05T21:11:26 0 <needmoney90> its just theymos
2020-08-05T21:11:30 0 <sethsimmons> Lol
2020-08-05T21:11:39 0 <needmoney90> theres no workgroup, just theymos
2020-08-05T21:11:42 0 <needmoney90> at least for the time period that we
2020-08-05T21:11:46 0 <niocbrrrrrr> we have thrmos
2020-08-05T21:11:47 0 <needmoney90> we're discussing in its history
2020-08-05T21:11:50 0 <sgp_> btc community is a dumpster fire
2020-08-05T21:12:03 0 <sgp_> at least on Reddit
2020-08-05T21:12:07 0 <midipoet> needmoney90: sure. I get the practicalities. I never said no to a company/entity. I mean, I don't think any of it is that important to be honest, and if it is, give it to core. They are the stewards
2020-08-05T21:12:19 0 <needmoney90> and you asked why its needed for more than payments
2020-08-05T21:12:23 0 <endogenic> sgp_ i find it weird you tell me what to say or not discuss
2020-08-05T21:12:24 0 <needmoney90> as I said, people die, or get disinterested
2020-08-05T21:12:27 0 <sgp_> midipoet: Core doesn't want to do everything
2020-08-05T21:12:28 0 <sethsimmons> Should core be the stewards of every community workgroup?
2020-08-05T21:12:28 0 <endogenic> just saying man :)
2020-08-05T21:12:41 0 <endogenic> maybe it's a texting thing
2020-08-05T21:12:46 0 <midipoet> sethsimmons: don't take the piss please. I have better things to be doing than taking the piss with you
2020-08-05T21:12:46 0 <endogenic> but i keep getting that feeling
2020-08-05T21:12:46 0 <sethsimmons> That seems antithetical to decentralization and resource usage.
2020-08-05T21:12:47 0 <needmoney90> having a larger entity over the handles makes sense logistically
2020-08-05T21:12:50 0 <sgp_> endogenic: lol, discuss that in another channel then, just off-topic here :p
2020-08-05T21:12:52 0 <endogenic> .bbl
2020-08-05T21:12:52 0 <monerobux> don't worry
2020-08-05T21:13:03 0 <endogenic> no
2020-08-05T21:13:05 0 <endogenic> boot me
2020-08-05T21:13:08 0 <endogenic> weirod
2020-08-05T21:13:19 0 <sethsimmons> <midipoet "sethsimmons: don't take the piss"> I’m not, I’m trying to figure out if you have an idea on how to improve things.
2020-08-05T21:13:22 0 <midipoet> sethsimmons: fuck me, checking others for sarcasm, then behaves exactly the same. Wise up.
2020-08-05T21:13:34 0 <sgp_> if Core was more centralized and did a ton of stuff, then maybe the MCW wouldn't need to exist, sure
2020-08-05T21:13:42 0 <sethsimmons> People keep saying no to the LLC/proposal but have no proposal for how to keep things moving as we grow.
2020-08-05T21:13:49 0 <sethsimmons> <midipoet "sethsimmons: fuck me, checking o"> What sarcasm?
2020-08-05T21:14:02 0 <sethsimmons> They’re all honest questions lol
2020-08-05T21:14:16 0 <midipoet> sethsimmons: i am discussing what I think. Is that not a good start?
2020-08-05T21:14:24 0 <msavoritias[m]> <sethsimmons "People keep saying no to the LLC"> why not a non-profit or a cooperative though
2020-08-05T21:14:27 0 <geonic> we haven't reached a point where we can't continue to grow under the current infrastructure
2020-08-05T21:14:28 0 <midipoet> I have made a number of recommendations
2020-08-05T21:14:29 0 <sethsimmons> it is! I’m just trying to figure out what you think :/
2020-08-05T21:14:31 0 <sgp_> but Core doesn't want all the responsibilities, for a variety of reasons
2020-08-05T21:14:39 0 <sethsimmons> <msavoritias[m] "why not a non-profit or a cooper"> I’m not a lawyer, no idea on the technical details of that.
2020-08-05T21:15:07 0 <sethsimmons> <midipoet "I have made a number of recommen"> Sorry I must have missed those in backscroll — mind summing them up for me?
2020-08-05T21:15:20 0 <midipoet> sethsimmons: if you just listened you might find out.
2020-08-05T21:15:29 0 <sgp_> we can register as a nonprofit and then just not get an IRS "certs" of sorts
2020-08-05T21:15:31 0 <jwinterm> a non-profit in the US at least is a corporation
2020-08-05T21:15:38 0 <sethsimmons> <midipoet "sethsimmons: if you just listene"> I’m trying to find out...
2020-08-05T21:15:44 0 <sethsimmons> I’m asking you serious questions.
2020-08-05T21:16:29 0 <msavoritias[m]> For me I see an LLC as a for profit thing. The whole ethos of Monero goes out of the window
2020-08-05T21:16:42 0 <msavoritias[m]> a non Profit or a Cooperative seems more aligned
2020-08-05T21:16:50 0 <sethsimmons> AFAIK there is nothing explicitly for-profit about an LLC
2020-08-05T21:16:53 0 <sgp_> msavoritias[m]: I think that's a misconception about how entities work
2020-08-05T21:16:55 0 <niocbrrrrrr> Would it be different if someone outside the US  could handle payments?
2020-08-05T21:17:05 0 <geonic> sgp_ the comparison you're making between MCW LLC and Blockstream is scary to some of us. if you want to start your own Blockstream, hire some cryptographers and have at it. I don't see how appropriating community resources (spearheaded by you, of course) under a centralized umbrella is in service to the community.
2020-08-05T21:17:23 1 <sgp_> geonic: do not take that as a comparison between MCW and Blockstream
2020-08-05T21:17:32 0 <sethsimmons> Yeah I never saw that comparison
2020-08-05T21:17:43 0 <midipoet> niocbrrrrrr: there are a host of companies that could handle payments that I know of.
2020-08-05T21:17:47 0 <sethsimmons> And would vehemently oppose anything resembling Blockstream lol
2020-08-05T21:17:47 0 <jwinterm> msavoritias[m], non-profits are frequently LLCs
2020-08-05T21:17:52 0 <jwinterm> but they're always corporations
2020-08-05T21:17:55 0 <sgp_> Blockstream burns millions a year. MCW has a budget of $0.99
2020-08-05T21:18:09 0 <sgp_> and the goals are very different
2020-08-05T21:18:12 0 <needmoney90> eh, server fees and s tuff
2020-08-05T21:18:30 0 <jwinterm> monero satellite wen?
2020-08-05T21:18:45 0 <geonic> 8/5/2020, 2:10:56 PM <sgp_> not mcw != monero 
2020-08-05T21:18:45 0 <geonic> 8/5/2020, 2:11:10 PM <sgp_> like blockstream != btc
2020-08-05T21:18:48 0 <sgp_> MCW mission to mars for the Monero Moon Prize
2020-08-05T21:18:51 0 <geonic> for those that missed it
2020-08-05T21:19:01 1 <sgp_> lol geonic stop trolling
2020-08-05T21:19:09 0 <sgp_> or else leave if you can't participate in good faith
2020-08-05T21:19:20 0 <geonic> I saw another troll saying he never saw that comparison. just helping him :)
2020-08-05T21:19:22 0 <sgp_> you have no god-given right to participate here
2020-08-05T21:19:54 0 <geonic> I'll leave it to you to boot me when I've given you good cause
2020-08-05T21:20:29 1 <dsc_> geonic how does the formation of a LLC negatively impacts you?
2020-08-05T21:20:36 0 <dsc_> serious question ;p
2020-08-05T21:21:15 0 <midipoet> sgp_: to be fair, he is quoting what you wrote (for a second I thought he made it up)
2020-08-05T21:21:17 0 <geonic> it centralizes in the hands of a few resources that were created by the efforts of many
2020-08-05T21:22:19 0 <dsc_> like websites? and coffee chat?
2020-08-05T21:22:27 0 <geonic> whatever.
2020-08-05T21:22:48 0 <dsc_> Yeah, like what exactly? :P
2020-08-05T21:23:01 0 <dsc_> It's not like the LLC will commercially benefit or?
2020-08-05T21:23:12 0 <midipoet> dsc_: it sets a precedent for what the goal of any monero workgroup should be that reaches a certain size and influence.
2020-08-05T21:23:13 1 <sgp_> geonic is entitled to the coffee chats that I organize
2020-08-05T21:23:17 0 <geonic> it also sets a bad precedent. which one of our volunteer groups is going to form an LLC next?
2020-08-05T21:23:55 1 <sgp_> geonic: whichever one wants to
2020-08-05T21:24:08 0 <dsc_> i don't think it sets any precedent at all
2020-08-05T21:24:12 0 <geonic> why not Core? or is that not a volunteer group in your eyes?
2020-08-05T21:24:14 0 <midipoet> dsc_: it also raises the possibility that other workgroups could be subsumed into the MCW  due to the assets at their disposal
2020-08-05T21:24:19 0 <selsta> dsc_: when GUI LLC :DD
2020-08-05T21:24:26 0 <dsc_> selsta: exactly my point, that will never happen
2020-08-05T21:24:36 0 <sgp_> selsta: careful, it's a slippery slope dontyouknow
2020-08-05T21:24:48 0 <geonic> it creates a centrifugal force
2020-08-05T21:24:49 0 <dsc_> therefor, I don't really care if -community is a LLC, on the moon, or in another dimension
2020-08-05T21:24:58 0 <dsc_> it does not though
2020-08-05T21:25:03 0 <sgp_> "it creates a centrifugal force" wut
2020-08-05T21:25:06 0 <dsc_> most critical mass is in the dev channels
2020-08-05T21:25:18 0 <dsc_> if those turn into LLC - yes, that would be a big problem :)
2020-08-05T21:25:29 0 <midipoet> dsc_: there is also the distinct chance that the incorporation of MCW into an LLC means that they could leverage substantial economic weight to inventivise the goals and motives of what would otherwise be independent workgroups formed organically
2020-08-05T21:25:32 0 <sgp_> name another workgroup that adopted the CoC
2020-08-05T21:25:45 0 <jwinterm> centrifugal forces puch things out away from the center though right?
2020-08-05T21:25:50 0 <geonic> aren't dev decisions driven by community consensus? when you have a large workgroup that more or less represents the "community", don't you think they can affect dev decisions?
2020-08-05T21:25:54 0 <sethsimmons> <midipoet "dsc_: there is also the distinct"> What economic weight? They don’t even have donations, nor a profit source.
2020-08-05T21:25:55 0 <dsc_> midipoet: ok thats a fair point
2020-08-05T21:25:59 1 <selsta> geonic: no
2020-08-05T21:26:00 0 <jwinterm> maybe graviational force is more appropriate
2020-08-05T21:26:04 0 <selsta> we don’t do dev decisions in here
2020-08-05T21:26:22 0 <sgp_> midipoet dsc_ you can argue the same of a whale, or XMR.TO, or Tari, or anything
2020-08-05T21:26:28 0 <selsta> CCS stuff gets discussed here in the meetings, but core decides in the end
2020-08-05T21:26:34 1 <dsc_> geonic: so while I agree with your overall feeling of "LLC bad" - I actually think that some workgroups it can benefit, others the complete opposite
2020-08-05T21:26:36 0 <midipoet> sethsimmons: I would imagine an obvious step would be a CCS
2020-08-05T21:26:38 0 <geonic> is that mentioned somewhere in the LLC's bylaws? I didn't see it in the draft proposal
2020-08-05T21:26:42 0 <luigi1111w> centripetal jwinterm noob
2020-08-05T21:27:10 0 <geonic> centripetal yay that's my word.
2020-08-05T21:27:13 0 <sgp_> dsc_: I think that's fair; not the right fit for everyone obviously
2020-08-05T21:27:35 0 <midipoet> sgp_: yes, you could. Accept, this is the main comms channel, as well as the others that would be assets. That is also a vector
2020-08-05T21:27:41 0 <jwinterm> centripedal works also but is the mcw llc going to rapidly rotating, or is just an enourmous mass sucking everything in by its mere presence?
2020-08-05T21:27:42 0 <sethsimmons> If the LLC is only to pay bills and isn’t used to monopolize resources or conversation, I see no issues.
2020-08-05T21:27:54 0 <midipoet> sgp_: it's not like we HAVEN'T seen that sort of stuff before
2020-08-05T21:28:04 0 <dsc_> Fact is, sgp/rehrar et. al. can ALREADY monopolize resources and/or conversation
2020-08-05T21:28:05 0 <luigi1111w> MCW is the new MEW
2020-08-05T21:28:05 0 <sethsimmons> <midipoet "sgp_: yes, you could. Accept, th"> They’ve said many times they don’t own the channels.
2020-08-05T21:28:24 0 <dsc_> You don't need a LLC for a community takeover
2020-08-05T21:28:30 0 <sethsimmons> True
2020-08-05T21:28:37 0 <geonic> jwinterm lol
2020-08-05T21:28:38 0 <niocbrrrrrr> Just send me the bills
2020-08-05T21:28:38 0 <sgp_> midipoet: you are now theoretically (not actually) banned from coffee chats. See, can manipulate even without LLC
2020-08-05T21:29:16 0 <geonic> much easier to see dictatorial trends if exhibited directly by an individual rather than a "board"
2020-08-05T21:29:18 0 <sethsimmons> If the LLC is the best way to move towards more people doing the work necessary to drive community and adoption, I don’t get the big fuss.
2020-08-05T21:29:20 0 <geonic> "the board has decided that..."
2020-08-05T21:29:52 0 <jwinterm> yea, I understand the hesitancy to go with a corporate structure just because of the optics, but in the end I don't think really affects anything
2020-08-05T21:29:53 1 <sgp_> geonic: there are tons of ways around that though
2020-08-05T21:29:57 0 <sethsimmons> I have no legal expertise and therefore no idea if there are better legal methods to handle bills/payments/resources.
2020-08-05T21:30:06 1 <jwinterm> geonic, core can already hide behind that in the same way, no?
2020-08-05T21:30:14 0 <jwinterm> "monero core has decided that..."
2020-08-05T21:30:22 0 <jwinterm> "mcw has deciced that..."
2020-08-05T21:30:32 0 <jwinterm> just without a formalized legal structure
2020-08-05T21:30:48 0 <midipoet> sgp_: yes. But the coffee chat (as it stands) doesn't have a stamp and sealed approval of being a owned by an LLC that is the "official" MCW
2020-08-05T21:31:05 0 <geonic> I think people would bat an eye at "MCW has decided", in its current form
2020-08-05T21:31:13 0 <sgp_> I don't see the difference really midipoet
2020-08-05T21:31:53 0 <sgp_> to what extent does an LLC make that more or less official?
2020-08-05T21:32:13 0 <midipoet> sgp_: there is key distinction between being banned from a "coffee chat" and being banned from the "coffee chat that is owned and run by the official LLC that maintains/stewards/operates the Monero community"
2020-08-05T21:32:42 0 <midipoet> sgp_: you don't think there would be a difference in the eyes of the law?
2020-08-05T21:33:30 0 <sgp_> in the eyes of the law? no. I don't even know how that is a relevant question
2020-08-05T21:33:50 0 <sgp_> plus at the moment you would be hypothetically banned by MCW leaders anyway
2020-08-05T21:33:59 0 <sgp_> law doesn't care
2020-08-05T21:34:01 0 <sethsimmons> IMO an LLC would make things better, as the ownership of things is more spread out
2020-08-05T21:34:26 0 <sethsimmons> It’s no longer one/two people owning a resource/having admin/etc.
2020-08-05T21:34:27 0 <sethsimmons> And can be used to spread those resources out while simplifying payments
2020-08-05T21:35:02 0 <sgp_> and it helps make sure we vote before taking important actions, rather than justin representing the workgroup with whatever he feels that day
2020-08-05T21:35:02 0 <geonic> "Minions" called, they're asking for all the extras to return to set
2020-08-05T21:35:16 0 <rhadamanthus> Is there a link for this LLC proposal, or is it just a conversation here at this point?
2020-08-05T21:35:19 0 <kinghat[m]> i still have to read the draft before i make any comments on the whole thing. not that my opinion matters anyways 😛
2020-08-05T21:36:01 0 <xmrscott[m]> Constructive feedback I would think is always valued :)
2020-08-05T21:36:11 0 <midipoet> sgp_:  who votes? The board?
2020-08-05T21:36:15 0 <sethsimmons> Firefox is having a fit or else I’d grab the link
2020-08-05T21:36:25 0 <sethsimmons> I assume sgp_ or others can link you to the proposal rhadamanthus
2020-08-05T21:36:28 0 <sgp_> https://gist.github.com/SamsungGalaxyPlayer/77932db05ada82012d4f86bc862c17fb
2020-08-05T21:36:33 0 <kinghat[m]> what does matter is 🍍🍕
2020-08-05T21:36:34 0 <sethsimmons> There :)
2020-08-05T21:37:09 0 <rhadamanthus> thanks
2020-08-05T21:38:56 0 <sethsimmons> My only recommendations thus far:
2020-08-05T21:38:56 0 <sethsimmons> * Clarify what the asset ownership/management means practically now and after the LLC
2020-08-05T21:38:56 0 <sethsimmons> * Go with a less “official” sounding LLC name so it’s not confused as *the* community formed into an LLC
2020-08-05T21:42:00 0 <midipoet> sgp_: and honestly, there is a difference to the example you gave, imo. The example you used about "banning" an individual is actually really interesting. Being banned from some "loose community" is one thing. Being banned from a "digital meeting place of an incoporrated entity" is another altogether, i would imagine - especially if I didn't agree to the ban, and tried to get back in through other methods.
2020-08-05T21:42:00 0 <midipoet> There would be completely different legal ramifications, potentially.
2020-08-05T21:42:52 0 <sgp_> legal ramifications? on what grounds would you sue?
2020-08-05T21:43:29 0 <midipoet> sgp_: the legal ramifications work both ways. I could sue the entity. The entity could sue me
2020-08-05T21:43:59 0 <sgp_> if you're threatening to sue me, I definitely need this LLC
2020-08-05T21:44:12 0 <midipoet> On what grounds? Unjust denial of entry to a "community event"
2020-08-05T21:44:24 0 <sgp_> I have no idea lol
2020-08-05T21:44:32 0 <sgp_> this all seems crazy to me
2020-08-05T21:44:56 0 <midipoet> sgp_: I am saying I couldn't sue if there was not entity that ran the digital space
2020-08-05T21:45:06 0 <sgp_> that absolutely is not true
2020-08-05T21:45:18 0 <selsta> I hope that the LLC name does not contain the words "monero community"
2020-08-05T21:45:19 0 <sgp_> and your grounds would be incredibly weak in both cases
2020-08-05T21:45:27 0 <midipoet> But if there was, and it was owned, operated, maintained and managed entity, I could potentially sue
2020-08-05T21:45:42 0 <sgp_> you can sue individuals...
2020-08-05T21:45:43 0 <sethsimmons> <selsta "I hope that the LLC name does no"> Agreed selsta
2020-08-05T21:45:45 0 <sethsimmons> That could get very confusing to people.
2020-08-05T21:45:55 0 <midipoet> sgp_:  it's hypothetical. We don't even know the hypothetical situation.
2020-08-05T21:46:18 0 <sgp_> in any case I think any reasonable person would see this hypothetical situation is so hypothetical it's not worth concerning ourselves over
2020-08-05T21:46:42 0 <sgp_> I'm not concerned about my legal liability in either case
2020-08-05T21:46:43 0 <midipoet> sgp_: you have the example!!
2020-08-05T21:46:47 0 <midipoet> *gave
2020-08-05T21:47:21 0 <sgp_> I never brought up legal liability
2020-08-05T21:47:21 0 <jwinterm> the meetings happen on freenode
2020-08-05T21:47:29 0 <jwinterm> freenode is owned by a for-profit corporation
2020-08-05T21:47:37 0 <jwinterm> has anyone ever sued freenode for being banned?
2020-08-05T21:47:43 0 <sgp_> lol
2020-08-05T21:47:44 0 <geonic> I personally like "Monero Foundation". has a nice ring to it
2020-08-05T21:47:45 0 <midipoet> jwinterm: this may not always be the case
2020-08-05T21:47:55 0 <midipoet> There was talk of self hosted instances
2020-08-05T21:47:58 0 <sgp_> midipoet: seriously, this isn't relevant
2020-08-05T21:48:00 0 <midipoet> Was there not?
2020-08-05T21:49:08 0 <sgp_> yeah, but individuals can't reasonably sue others from being banned from their platform unless it's proven discrimination maybe
2020-08-05T21:49:41 0 <midipoet> https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2010/09/01/maryland-woman-sues-after-being-banned-by-facebook/amp/
2020-08-05T21:49:41 0 <sgp_> doesn't matter who runs the platform. in no cases are these public services
2020-08-05T21:49:46 0 <midipoet> Sorry for the amp.
2020-08-05T21:50:53 0 <sgp_> people can sue for any reason
2020-08-05T21:51:04 0 <midipoet> sgp_: so then why are you saying I can't sue
2020-08-05T21:51:06 0 <midipoet> Lol
2020-08-05T21:51:30 0 <sgp_> I don't even know what this conversation is anymore
2020-08-05T21:51:48 0 <sgp_> I'm not going to talk more about legal liability
2020-08-05T21:51:57 0 <sgp_> the conversation is not relevant
2020-08-05T21:52:03 0 <rhadamanthus> so would this be for-profit or not-for-profit?
2020-08-05T21:52:10 0 <sethsimmons> Not for profit
2020-08-05T21:53:12 0 <needmoney90> Legal status as a nonprofit is more difficult, so legally it may be a for profit entity.
2020-08-05T21:53:13 0 <midipoet> sgp_: I was only using it to demonstrate the difference between a "loose community" on a "public" platform, and a LLC owned and operated communication medium, along with the different legal ramifications that may ensue from this. And only then to show the difference between the two! You gave the example in the first place, I just ran with it.
2020-08-05T21:53:30 0 <geonic> if the Bitcoin Foundation could pull off nonprofit status, I don't see why we couldn't
2020-08-05T21:54:12 0 <sethsimmons> What is the Bitcoin Foundation?
2020-08-05T21:54:13 1 <sgp_> geonic: there are no plans to register at the moment
2020-08-05T21:54:16 0 <sethsimmons> Never heard that name.
2020-08-05T21:54:24 0 <geonic> homework
2020-08-05T21:54:28 0 <sgp_> lmao
2020-08-05T21:54:49 0 <sgp_> choosing beggar much?
2020-08-05T21:56:01 0 <rhadamanthus> How have similar entities worked out in other communities? The Bitcoin Foundation was a bust, but how is the Zcash Foundation or the Ethereum Foundation working out?
2020-08-05T21:56:26 0 <geonic> they're corruptible and centralizing forces wherever they've been tried
2020-08-05T21:56:39 0 <jwinterm> pretty sure zcash foundation is just a front for electric coin company
2020-08-05T21:56:59 0 <jwinterm> eth foundation is front for consensys
2020-08-05T21:57:10 0 <sethsimmons> I don’t think those are comparable honestly, they’re very different entities
2020-08-05T21:57:17 0 <sethsimmons> Neither of those are even focusing on community.
2020-08-05T21:57:19 0 <midipoet> agree. This sort of thing has not worked out well in the past. Don't see why we think it would work out any different.
2020-08-05T21:57:32 0 <sgp_> I really hate the comparison between the MCW and the ZF and the ECC. The two latter get funds from the network directly
2020-08-05T21:57:40 0 <geonic> the Monero Foundation could be a front for MCW LLC. we must think two steps ahead.
2020-08-05T21:57:47 0 <midipoet> lol
2020-08-05T21:57:49 0 <sethsimmons> Sigh...
2020-08-05T21:57:57 0 <sgp_> only two? :p
2020-08-05T21:58:12 0 <midipoet> Grandmaster needs 42
2020-08-05T21:58:15 0 <geonic> haha
2020-08-05T21:58:32 0 <sgp_> 11 entities owning each other in a circle
2020-08-05T21:58:52 0 <midipoet> that's a co-op
2020-08-05T21:58:55 0 <geonic> but that would surely attract more contributors and make paying our bills easier!
2020-08-05T21:59:11 0 <sgp_> sigh
2020-08-05T21:59:17 0 * geonic sighs too
2020-08-05T21:59:33 0 <midipoet> Which was my suggestion waaaay back
2020-08-05T21:59:33 0 <midipoet> Just so Seth knowa
2020-08-05T21:59:33 0 <midipoet> *knows
2020-08-05T21:59:44 0 <rhadamanthus_> sorry, have you already gone over this? I can be filled in later if so.
2020-08-05T21:59:56 0 <sgp_> midipoet: I definitely wasn't referring to a co-op there; it was a joke
2020-08-05T22:00:04 0 <sethsimmons> What would a co-op improve/change about the proposal?
2020-08-05T22:00:15 0 <sethsimmons> I honestly don’t know what that is in practice
2020-08-05T22:00:20 0 <midipoet> sgp_: yes I know. I was riffing a joke on your joke
2020-08-05T22:00:22 0 <sgp_> I just want to stress a co-op is not a standalone business structure
2020-08-05T22:00:23 0 <sethsimmons> And how it would effect things moving forward.
2020-08-05T22:00:32 0 <sgp_> LLC or corporations can act as a cooperative
2020-08-05T22:00:56 0 <midipoet> sgp_: yes that may be true. Where I am, they are (afaiu)
2020-08-05T22:01:10 0 <sgp_> REI, one of the largest co-ops, is "Recreational Equipment, Inc."
2020-08-05T22:04:00 0 <rehrar> I keep seeing this: "centralized resources to a few that many have put effort into"
2020-08-05T22:04:08 0 <rehrar> And I'm struggling to visualize this hypothetical many.
2020-08-05T22:04:35 0 <geonic> oooh we're all just recipients of your benevolence here
2020-08-05T22:06:59 0 <rehrar> But, I'll be blunt, these are the minority of contributions. Many (most?) of the contributions are being done by us three, and honestly, most of that by sgp
2020-08-05T22:07:17 0 <rehrar> So should we structure our entire setup for the infrequent contributions?
2020-08-05T22:07:37 0 <rehrar> Or should we structure to get the day-to-day done with less headache?
2020-08-05T22:07:56 0 <rehrar> There's what we would like to have happen (more contributors), and what is the reality (few contributors)
2020-08-05T22:07:57 0 <rehrar> That said
2020-08-05T22:08:22 0 <rehrar> I understand the concern that if we make certain steps, people are concerned it will lock us into the few contributors format.
2020-08-05T22:08:40 0 <rehrar> In other words, if we assume few contributors and structure around that, it may be a self fulfilling prophecy.
2020-08-05T22:09:10 0 <rehrar> But at the same time, this workgroup has been a thing for years now, and hadn't been structured in a way that a self-fulfilling prophecy would happen, and we still are hurting for help. :/
2020-08-05T22:09:33 0 <sethsimmons> As long as there is a clear goal of delegation/committees, I see this as a good step forward.
2020-08-05T22:09:36 0 <rehrar> How long do we hold out for the hypothetical flood of volunteers? Are we willing to burn out our consistent volunteers to hold on to this hope?
2020-08-05T22:09:46 0 <sethsimmons> We needed some formalization/focus, and this seems like a good first step and path forward.
2020-08-05T22:09:54 0 <selsta> FWIW I can say in general LLCs would make me want to contribute less
2020-08-05T22:10:17 0 <sethsimmons> <selsta "FWIW I can say in general LLCs w"> LLCs in general, or this specific proposal that includes an LLC?
2020-08-05T22:10:34 0 <sethsimmons> What are your thoughts on how we can better handle payments/ongoing costs without one?
2020-08-05T22:10:46 0 <sethsimmons> If we can work around that I’m for it, but I haven’t seen a better way forward yet.
2020-08-05T22:10:53 0 <rehrar> Selsta, and would you not have the options n to contribute to literally every other workgroup that doesn't have an LLC?
2020-08-05T22:11:01 0 <selsta> E.g. I wouldn’t contribute to something like Zcash
2020-08-05T22:12:43 0 <selsta> rehrar: MCW creating an LLC does not really bother me as I don’t contribute here too much anyway
2020-08-05T22:12:59 0 <rehrar> Honest question to ask people opposed to this idea. If someone put in the work and made it a non-profit instead of an LLC, would this alleviate some concerns or not really?
2020-08-05T22:13:08 0 <geonic> no.
2020-08-05T22:13:11 0 <selsta> no,
2020-08-05T22:13:22 0 <jwinterm> a non-profit is an LLC tho
2020-08-05T22:13:27 0 <jwinterm> or an s-corporation
2020-08-05T22:13:31 0 <jwinterm> it's some kind of corporation
2020-08-05T22:13:48 0 <jwinterm> it's like a trick question
2020-08-05T22:13:52 0 <rehrar> Ok, so I want another honest answer here.
2020-08-05T22:14:00 0 <selsta> I just think it’s weird joining a community where there a 3 "board members" and the rest
2020-08-05T22:14:29 0 <rehrar> Do you think this who pay for resources or of pocket should just suck it up in terms of the tax difficulties?
2020-08-05T22:14:30 0 <geonic> but you are afforded the opportunity of being delegated certain tasks. that makes up for it.
2020-08-05T22:14:43 0 <rehrar> Like, all FOSS takes sacrifices. Deal with it and stop bitching.
2020-08-05T22:15:01 0 <geonic> rehrar: I volunteered to help pay for resource out of pocket and suck up the tax difficulties.
2020-08-05T22:15:04 0 <geonic> I can't speak for others.
2020-08-05T22:15:11 0 <geonic> resources*
2020-08-05T22:15:20 0 <jwinterm> what are MCW expenses on a yearly basis at this point?
2020-08-05T22:16:12 0 <jwinterm> I don't really care which way this shakes out. I understand the desire to reduce out of pocket expenses. I'm just curious what the magnitude of the issue is at the moment.
2020-08-05T22:16:16 0 <selsta> rehrar: the proposal wasn’t solely about payments
2020-08-05T22:16:49 0 <rehrar> selsta: I know, but it's a big reason.
2020-08-05T22:18:13 0 <selsta> sethsimmons: LLCs in general, like I said I don’t care too much about this proposal here
2020-08-05T22:18:27 0 <sethsimmons> Thanks
2020-08-05T22:18:36 0 <sgp_> it's not a board for managing the community, it's a board for selecting what to spend resources on for the community's benefit
2020-08-05T22:18:42 0 <sethsimmons> I don’t really have a deep understanding of them so I’m trying to learn more about people’s objections.
2020-08-05T22:18:52 0 <sgp_> resources = time and money
2020-08-05T22:19:01 0 <sethsimmons> <sgp_ "it's not a board for managing th"> I think that’s something that should be clarified in the doc
2020-08-05T22:19:14 0 <sethsimmons> It’s a bit vague, and I think a lot of people are interpreting it differently.
2020-08-05T22:19:18 0 <sgp_> I tried to make that clear under goals of the organization overall
2020-08-05T22:19:30 0 <rehrar> At this point, I honestly think the name of the workgroup should be changed and it will clear a lot of things up.
2020-08-05T22:19:41 0 <sgp_> "here's the board, here are the goals of what they want to do"
2020-08-05T22:19:45 0 <geonic> "We're doing all this work, and no one is offering to help us! It's so hard dealing with the tax implications of $500/m in server fees." "I'll pay for it and deal with the tax issues!" "No one, not one person!"
2020-08-05T22:20:16 0 <sgp_> if you think this is just about cost you're mistaken
2020-08-05T22:20:31 0 <sgp_> these resources take effort to maintain
2020-08-05T22:20:37 0 <geonic> I imagine someone would take me up on my offer if that was the issue. It's the third time I've made it.
2020-08-05T22:20:54 0 <rehrar> Who guna sysadmin?
2020-08-05T22:21:03 0 <geonic> so it's not the tax implications, it's the.... "effort to maintain"?
2020-08-05T22:21:07 0 <geonic> how is your LLC solving that?
2020-08-05T22:21:11 1 <sgp_> geonic: since you keep being divisive, go form your own workgroup then bye. prove us wrong
2020-08-05T22:21:42 0 <sgp_> spend 3 Saturdays a week organizing events
2020-08-05T22:22:25 0 <sgp_> did you make Defcon talk or event proposals?
2020-08-05T22:22:26 0 <rehrar> Monero events aren't real and you've never seen one.
2020-08-05T22:22:36 0 <midipoet> sgp_: the LLC thing also talks about subsuming new/other functions, does it not?
2020-08-05T22:22:40 0 <sgp_> want to make blockfolio updates for every happening?
2020-08-05T22:22:44 0 <sgp_> there are a billion things
2020-08-05T22:22:51 0 <sgp_> and a billion more we can't do but want to do
2020-08-05T22:23:17 0 <sgp_> so, if you feel we aren't doing a good job, you have no requirement to support us or be beholden to us
2020-08-05T22:23:48 0 <midipoet> rehrar: a lot of people out hard graft into Monero events. Certainly way more that 3 people
2020-08-05T22:23:49 0 <sgp_> we will listen to useful feedback, but your bad-faith arguments have no place anywhere. good-faith fine
2020-08-05T22:24:00 0 <rehrar> Even though we decided not to make it a part of the theoretical LLC, I'll use the Monero radio idea as an example.
2020-08-05T22:24:20 0 <rehrar> Someone has to hold the licenses. An entity has to hold the rights to the songs. Etc.
2020-08-05T22:24:53 0 <midipoet> what's with the kicking someone out repeatedly? I didn't think they were being that divisive?
2020-08-05T22:25:20 0 <rehrar> In this case, we decided to probably just do it under Cypher Stack (my business). But I'm certain some people will say "oh look, Diego is holding all of the licenses to this thing, so he can personally benefit from it if he wanted to."
2020-08-05T22:25:20 0 <needmoney90> I kicked him once for constantly trolling and talking down to people.
2020-08-05T22:25:24 0 <kinghat[m]> i think in that case you wouldnt have a monero radio, monero radio would be internet based.
2020-08-05T22:25:29 0 <needmoney90> It wasn't "repeatedly"
2020-08-05T22:25:29 0 <geonic> sure, I can do Blockfolio, together with xmrhaelan. but is that how these decisions are made? to prove a point?
2020-08-05T22:25:42 0 <needmoney90> and if he continues acting like that I will happily give him a tempban
2020-08-05T22:25:50 0 <sgp_> with xmrhaelan? he is able to push these now and doesn't
2020-08-05T22:26:10 0 <midipoet> needmoney90: ah I thought he was kicked a second time. Apols
2020-08-05T22:26:20 0 <midipoet> he/she/it
2020-08-05T22:26:30 0 <needmoney90> you didnt say xe
2020-08-05T22:26:33 0 <needmoney90> how dare you
2020-08-05T22:26:55 0 * needmoney90 goes back to lurking
2020-08-05T22:27:04 0 <geonic> ok then. I volunteer to help push them.
2020-08-05T22:27:09 0 <rehrar> midipoet, regarding events, I understand lots of people put effort, but I have a hard time listening to you regarding them when every time I was mildly miffed about how the Defcon volunteer situation panned out last year (causing me tons of extra work) you tell me to hush.
2020-08-05T22:27:35 0 <midipoet> actually does outreach form part of -community? That wasn't clear. Outreach in general isn't clear to me.
2020-08-05T22:27:44 0 <rehrar> No. Outreach is their own thing.
2020-08-05T22:27:46 0 <geonic> outreach is on telegram
2020-08-05T22:27:48 0 <kinghat[m]> if a dev wants to get paid for working on monero they have to go to the CCS, why should that be different for any other contributor?
2020-08-05T22:27:49 0 <sgp_> fwiw I'm looking into nonprofit registrations (not 501(c)(3)) and they seem to be more work but I'll see if they are reasonable. They usually need to be corporations, not LLCs
2020-08-05T22:28:06 0 <sgp_> kinghat[m]: who says they have to go to the CCS?
2020-08-05T22:28:11 0 <sgp_> no one
2020-08-05T22:29:03 0 <kinghat[m]> no, i know they can get funding from anywhere but through the official channels setup via the community.
2020-08-05T22:29:21 0 <sgp_> nothing about this workgroup officially represents Monero
2020-08-05T22:29:47 0 <midipoet> rehrar: the volunteer situation was just that. They are volunteers. It'll work well sometimes, others not. I wouldn't dwell on it, that's all I say. My point still stands, Monero events wouldn't work without the whole crew (and more)
2020-08-05T22:29:57 0 <rehrar> Some were paid you dingus.
2020-08-05T22:30:34 0 <sgp_> rehrar midipoet: it's probably best not to focus on who is getting paid or not; I don't really see how it's relevant here
2020-08-05T22:30:53 0 <midipoet> rehrar: I would imagine if you totted the hours it was fair. Maybe they weren't as reliable...that's another point though
2020-08-05T22:31:06 0 <rehrar> Lul
2020-08-05T22:31:13 0 <kinghat[m]> still havent read the thing yet but it sounds like its two issues at hand. people want to be paid for their efforts and it would make paying for stuffs easier?
2020-08-05T22:31:24 0 <sgp_> kinghat[m]: nah, not using this to get paid
2020-08-05T22:31:32 0 <sgp_> no idea where that came from
2020-08-05T22:31:34 0 <rehrar> kinghat[m]: no. Nobody is wanting to use this to get paid.
2020-08-05T22:31:34 0 <midipoet> sgp_: it's not relevant. Rehrar brought up events, I was saying that events are way more then MCW
2020-08-05T22:31:54 0 <needmoney90> I dont want to get paid either, I've explicitly kept myself away from anything like that
2020-08-05T22:32:00 0 <sgp_> same
2020-08-05T22:32:02 0 <needmoney90> My work here is strictly volunteer :/
2020-08-05T22:32:09 0 <kinghat[m]> btw i dont have anything against anyone being paid for their efforts*
2020-08-05T22:32:22 0 <sgp_> good
2020-08-05T22:32:34 0 <rehrar> Actually I think it is somewhat important to discuss the payment portion. Because, like it or not, it means my contributions to MCW are technically contributions from Core.
2020-08-05T22:32:49 0 <rehrar> So it's not the "trinity" doing things that were discussing.
2020-08-05T22:32:55 0 <rehrar> It's sgp_ and needmoney90
2020-08-05T22:33:06 0 <midipoet> So Core has a paid for board member ;-)
2020-08-05T22:33:08 0 <rehrar> Who do this free of charge, volunteer, do most of it, and I want to support what they want.
2020-08-05T22:33:16 0 <rehrar> midipoet: I actually won't be a part of the board.
2020-08-05T22:33:24 0 <sgp_> yeah, he mentioned that to us
2020-08-05T22:33:32 0 <rehrar> For specifically this reason.
2020-08-05T22:33:34 0 <sgp_> I think I put that in the doc?
2020-08-05T22:33:36 0 * sgp_ checks
2020-08-05T22:33:54 0 <midipoet> Look, we all agree the doc needs work
2020-08-05T22:34:02 0 <midipoet> I think that's fair to say
2020-08-05T22:34:07 0 <geonic> so it's a two-person board. sounds even better.
2020-08-05T22:34:09 0 <rehrar> I'm not a moron. I know my paid position means "core influence" wherever I go.
2020-08-05T22:34:12 0 <sgp_> "(unofficial capacity as requested)"
2020-08-05T22:34:31 0 <midipoet> I also think it's fair to say that the doc was always going to get criticism
2020-08-05T22:34:40 0 <geonic> the question is which one of the two holds veto power? In that case, why even have a board at all?
2020-08-05T22:34:53 0 <rehrar> midipoet: I don't think anybody thought it was going to be anything but this when the doc was shared. :P
2020-08-05T22:35:00 0 <sgp_> midipoet: yeah, I expected nothing less from you all
2020-08-05T22:35:19 0 <sgp_> you all hated on me for Monero Means Money lol
2020-08-05T22:35:41 0 <sgp_> or at least the overwhelming community sentiment was originally negative
2020-08-05T22:35:58 0 <sethsimmons> “You all” is currently 2 people FWIW
2020-08-05T22:36:18 0 <sgp_> ErCiccione offered disagreements too
2020-08-05T22:36:25 0 <sethsimmons> And selsta has raised good contrarian points, along with some points by erciccione
2020-08-05T22:36:27 0 <sethsimmons> Yeah
2020-08-05T22:36:45 0 <sethsimmons> Would love it if more people would speak up
2020-08-05T22:36:49 0 <rehrar> It's true this discussion has been smaller.
2020-08-05T22:36:49 0 <kinghat[m]> regardless of intent this will probably and unfortunately create a "community fork"
2020-08-05T22:37:00 0 <rehrar> The CoC one was a huge shit show.
2020-08-05T22:37:04 0 <sgp_> kinghat[m]: nah
2020-08-05T22:37:06 0 <geonic> sgp_, why do you want an LLC with a two-person board? how are disagreements going to be handled?
2020-08-05T22:37:42 0 <sgp_> we will count Diego's vote
2020-08-05T22:37:47 0 <rehrar> Ree
2020-08-05T22:37:49 0 <sgp_> even though unofficial
2020-08-05T22:38:43 0 <midipoet> To be honest, I always disagree with attempts at formalisation (that's my own personal view)
2020-08-05T22:38:43 0 <jwinterm> can the board please enumerate monero community workgroup official position on hawaiian pizza?
2020-08-05T22:38:59 0 <sgp_> soft pass
2020-08-05T22:39:02 0 <sgp_> (my vote)
2020-08-05T22:39:07 0 <rehrar> jwinterm: nasty
2020-08-05T22:39:12 0 <jwinterm> fork off kinghat[m]
2020-08-05T22:39:17 0 <sethsimmons> I’d ban it if I was on the board
2020-08-05T22:39:29 0 <sgp_> I'd eat it if there was no other pizza
2020-08-05T22:39:44 0 <needmoney90> I like it
2020-08-05T22:39:50 0 <needmoney90> But I'm overruled
2020-08-05T22:39:52 0 <needmoney90> So board says no
2020-08-05T22:40:19 0 <kinghat[m]> <jwinterm "fork off kinghat"> see, this is how it starts.
2020-08-05T22:40:23 0 <sgp_> omg entire monero community hates hawaiian pizza how dare we
2020-08-05T22:40:40 0 <kinghat[m]> no i said the skeptical 🦛
2020-08-05T22:40:46 0 <kinghat[m]> not*
2020-08-05T22:42:10 0 <sgp_> I know that was a joke, but for real we will take significant efforts to make sure this workgroup does not imply the will of anything unreasonable
2020-08-05T22:42:13 0 <rehrar> Ok. Enough fighting. Group hug.
2020-08-05T22:44:16 0 <kinghat[m]> other than the tech and the og community, im here for the chaos of it all. any legal entity takes away from that for me. thats just one cent of my selfish take on it ☹️
2020-08-05T22:44:46 0 <sgp_> see, chaos isn't the goal for most people
2020-08-05T22:45:38 0 <rehrar> kinghat[m]: I know bro. It's hard.
2020-08-05T22:45:50 0 <rehrar> Like when your favorite indie punk band makes it mainstream and has to go pop to survive.
2020-08-05T22:46:03 0 <lza_menace> relatable
2020-08-05T22:46:04 0 <sgp_> oof the feels
2020-08-05T22:46:14 0 <kinghat[m]> i wasnt using chaos pejoratively here
2020-08-05T22:46:41 0 <kinghat[m]> <rehrar "Like when your favorite indie pu"> or when a band member leaves.. or they break up..
2020-08-05T22:47:48 0 <rehrar> Let it be known that I sold out two years ago for a paycheck.
2020-08-05T22:48:06 0 <sgp_> this is more like someone refusing to attend a concert because the band is no longer performing out of a garage because they are more successful than that and now play on large stages
2020-08-05T22:48:49 0 <rehrar> Ok. Hear me out. A new MoneroKon. But for furries.
2020-08-05T22:49:06 0 <kinghat[m]> sold out. gone corporate. cut their hair!
2020-08-05T22:49:15 0 <kinghat[m]> rehrar: plz dont cut your hair!
2020-08-05T22:49:20 0 <sgp_> 😼
2020-08-05T22:49:28 0 <sgp_> no smirk dog, what an oversight
2020-08-05T22:50:17 0 <rehrar> Join #monero-yiff
2020-08-05T22:50:27 0 <needmoney90> core should shut that down
2020-08-05T22:50:29 0 <needmoney90> Immediately.
2020-08-05T22:50:32 0 <kinghat[m]> metallica cut their hair and were never the same.
2020-08-05T22:50:45 0 <rehrar> luigi1111w: will take part
2020-08-05T22:52:02 0 <rehrar> Dude, we have a guy named fluffypony
2020-08-05T22:52:20 0 <jwinterm> there was some fuzzy guys at monerokon last year
2020-08-05T22:52:21 0 <xmrscott[m]> And our mascot js a bird
2020-08-05T22:52:25 0 <jwinterm> it was weird
2020-08-05T22:52:29 0 <xmrscott[m]> Apparently
2020-08-05T22:52:53 0 <dsc_> guys & girls
2020-08-05T22:52:54 0 <xmrscott[m]> Wait what? People in fursuits at Kon?
2020-08-05T22:52:56 0 <dsc_> the 14 word seed
2020-08-05T22:52:58 0 <dsc_> whats the status
2020-08-05T22:52:59 0 <dsc_> on that
2020-08-05T22:53:35 0 <xmrscott[m]> I didn't see any fursuits /me goes back over photos of Kon
2020-08-05T22:53:55 0 <jwinterm> they came in for couple talks in morning session on saturday I think
2020-08-05T22:54:07 0 <jwinterm> one was fuzzy dino I think forget what other was
2020-08-05T22:54:09 0 <sgp_> oh yeah
2020-08-05T22:54:16 0 <sgp_> I forgot about that
2020-08-05T22:56:07 0 <xmrscott[m]> I mean it's a downtown hotel so I suppose it's possible there was another Kon downtown or something
2020-08-05T22:56:13 0 <rehrar> Feds probably
2020-08-05T22:56:20 0 <rehrar> Everyone knows feds = furries
2020-08-05T22:56:58 0 <geonic> alright pop stars, I'm out for now. if anyone feels like their Blockfolio pushes are taking too much time or they can't handle the tax burden of paying for servers any more, you can always PM me. it's easier than forming an LLC. if you have the urge to feel bullied or victimized and need to kick someone, I'm there for that as well. <3
2020-08-05T22:57:15 0 <sgp_> there were a bunch of furries at the LGBT party under the Monero Defcon party in 2018
2020-08-05T22:57:49 0 <xmrscott[m]> "dsc_" (https://matrix.to/#/@freenode_dsc_:matrix.org):  tevador hasn't been active for about 2 months https://reddit.com/u/tevador
2020-08-05T22:57:50 0 <monerobux> OAuthException: invalid_grant error processing request (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/prawcore/auth.py", line 142, in _request_token)
2020-08-05T22:58:51 0 <xmrscott[m]> Reddit or GitHub
2020-08-05T22:59:04 1 <rehrar> Geonic nerds don't bully well. :/
2020-08-05T22:59:30 0 <rehrar> O__o
2020-08-05T22:59:54 0 <needmoney90> rehrar is booly
2020-08-05T23:00:05 0 <dsc_> xmrscott[m]: thanks
2020-08-05T23:00:20 0 <rehrar> Nuuuuu
2020-08-05T23:01:05 0 <xmrscott[m]> "dsc_" (https://matrix.to/#/@freenode_dsc_:matrix.org): I'd probably PM them on reddit or if you seem them on IRC, IRC I guess (on mobile so can't easily tell)
2020-08-05T23:02:21 0 <xmrscott[m]> \whois tevador
2020-08-05T23:03:05 0 <xmrscott[m]> Bah, Matrix can't handle either slash
2020-08-05T23:03:06 0 <rehrar> +v rehrar
2020-08-05T23:03:27 0 <jwinterm> he's not in dev channel and last github commit was july 4
2020-08-05T23:03:51 0 <dsc_> just wondering if someone were to create a new GUI if that would use 14 word seed and ignore legacy
2020-08-05T23:04:06 0 <selsta> wouldn’t you need backwards comp?
2020-08-05T23:04:24 0 <dsc_> it would be nice, but necessary
2020-08-05T23:04:25 0 <selsta> if someone wants to restore their old wallet
2020-08-05T23:04:53 0 <dsc_> people can restore on other wallets I suppose
2020-08-05T23:05:33 0 <selsta> I would guess you don’t gain much from only supporting 14 word seed
2020-08-05T23:05:34 0 <dsc_> unless tevador also provided a conversion utility
2020-08-05T23:05:43 0 <charuto> xmrscott: message @appservice-irc:matrix.org  with !whois tevador
2020-08-05T23:05:55 0 <selsta> as GUI wouldn’t bother with wallet2 code anyway
2020-08-05T23:05:56 0 <dsc_> selsta: it would, since restore height is embedded, its more fool proof
2020-08-05T23:06:01 0 <selsta> ah true :P
2020-08-05T23:06:19 0 <dsc_> I have traumatic experiences from helpign people with bad restore heights
2020-08-05T23:06:23 0 <dsc_> "welp my balance is gone"
2020-08-05T23:06:29 0 <dsc_> everytiiem
2020-08-05T23:06:43 0 <dsc_> so just wondering if any new GUI should just use 14 word seed and be done with it
2020-08-05T23:06:44 0 <charuto> always set restore height to 0
2020-08-05T23:06:56 0 <rehrar> Make the change sooner rather than later. We're still niche.
2020-08-05T23:07:02 0 <rehrar> Quick! Before the masses get in!
2020-08-05T23:07:02 0 <charuto> there is a non-zero chance your address might have received random xmr before you created it
2020-08-05T23:07:07 0 <rehrar> We're still on the ground floor!
2020-08-05T23:07:19 0 <dsc_> charuto: haha
2020-08-05T23:07:24 0 <dsc_> rehrar: yes
2020-08-05T23:07:57 0 <rehrar> Buy BTC, sell altcoinz
2020-08-05T23:08:36 0 <rehrar> Selsta is a maximalist!
2020-08-05T23:08:54 0 <dsc_> selsta is bae
2020-08-05T23:08:54 0 <xmrscott[m]> "charuto" (https://matrix.to/#/@charutocafe:matrix.org): Thanks
2020-08-05T23:09:10 0 <rehrar> dsc_: 2troo
2020-08-05T23:09:49 0 <selsta> w0w
2020-08-05T23:10:13 0 <rehrar> I want a calendar of 2021
2020-08-05T23:10:25 0 <rehrar> Every month is a new selsta pic
2020-08-05T23:10:56 0 <niocbrrrrrr> !tip selsta 1 barolo
2020-08-05T23:11:03 0 <rehrar> Sell on cypher market
2020-08-05T23:11:05 0 <kinghat[m]> maybe pointers from the KDE community could help us: https://pointieststick.com/2020/08/04/the-structure-of-kde-or-how-anarchy-sometimes-works/
2020-08-05T23:12:12 0 <dsc_> KDE actually has a foundation that keeps the Qt company in check
2020-08-05T23:12:31 0 <kinghat[m]> ya well see how long that lasts
2020-08-05T23:13:01 0 <kinghat[m]> havent recent developments suggested a move in the wrong direction?
2020-08-05T23:13:46 0 <dsc_> kinghat[m]: regarding Qt?
2020-08-05T23:13:54 0 <kinghat[m]> ya
2020-08-05T23:14:00 0 <dsc_> yes there is a cyberwar going o
2020-08-05T23:14:03 0 <dsc_> going on*
2020-08-05T23:14:10 0 <dsc_> let me find the blogpost
2020-08-05T23:14:24 0 <kinghat[m]> im sure ive read it. was a few months ago
2020-08-05T23:14:31 0 <kinghat[m]> i think i talked with you about it, actually.
2020-08-05T23:15:06 0 <dsc_> ahh
2020-08-05T23:15:28 0 <dsc_> but yeah basically KDE is in danger maybe idk
2020-08-05T23:16:02 0 <kinghat[m]> but the article is fitting and timely given the recent goings on here.
2020-08-05T23:20:41 0 <dsc_> not really
2020-08-05T23:20:54 0 <dsc_> the discussions here rarely impact development efforts
2020-08-05T23:20:59 0 <dsc_> while KDE vs Qt do
2020-08-05T23:21:20 0 <xmrscott[m]> There was a flare up circa March/April
2020-08-05T23:21:28 0 <dsc_> (that sounded worse than I meant it btw)
2020-08-05T23:21:38 0 <xmrscott[m]> Nothing came of it, Qt backed down from their shenangians
2020-08-05T23:21:42 0 <needmoney90> dsc_ why r u so meen
2020-08-05T23:21:46 0 <kinghat[m]> yes but we are an anarchy like lot
2020-08-05T23:22:02 0 <kinghat[m]> also a sponge
2020-08-05T23:22:31 0 <xmrscott[m]> KDE has a license in place to split from Qt should Qt be evil, we are le safe from framework fights
2020-08-05T23:23:37 0 <kinghat[m]> surprised it hasnt been forked
2020-08-05T23:23:52 0 <xmrscott[m]> Because it's mutually beneficial
2020-08-05T23:24:04 0 <rehrar> lul
2020-08-05T23:24:57 0 <xmrscott[m]> KDE contributes to Qt, as does Qt. Only when Qt's greed gets enough to change the license will things hit the fan however briefly
2020-08-05T23:25:52 0 <dsc_> Well I would assume that a good portion of Qt employees are former open-source devs or otherwise came from that background
2020-08-05T23:26:20 0 <dsc_> so it's not greed, more likely a commercial company (thats also tradeable btw) in bad financial state
2020-08-05T23:26:34 0 <dsc_> due to corona and whatevs
2020-08-05T23:27:05 0 <dsc_> really doubt it's just greed
2020-08-05T23:27:31 0 <dsc_> and then their shareholders get salty
2020-08-05T23:27:55 0 <xmrscott[m]> I mean I think any publicly traded company is subject to shareholder greed
2020-08-05T23:27:57 0 <dsc_> the tragedy of capitalism
2020-08-05T23:27:59 0 <xmrscott[m]> Exactly
2020-08-05T23:30:22 0 <kinghat[m]> fork Qt, open, dont profit. simple.
2020-08-05T23:35:10 0 <xmrscott[m]> Yeah, but then you lose the labor of the Qt conpany. Which is bad because now KDE have to waste energy on the framework itself making everything dandy for Wayland, etc
2020-08-05T23:35:50 0 <kinghat[m]> maybe the power would shift to the open project instead.
2020-08-05T23:36:36 0 <xmrscott[m]> KDE is certainly holding the cards I think
2020-08-05T23:37:21 0 <kinghat[m]> i think the opposite and will get burned but only time will tell 🤷‍♂️
2020-08-05T23:37:27 0 <xmrscott[m]> Why use a framework you have to pay for when you can use the exact same code for free. Qt would have to develop lots of shiny features in a short time to ask for money
2020-08-05T23:40:20 0 <kinghat[m]> would have to come up with a different business model.
2020-08-05T23:40:54 0 <Lovera[m]> Hello guys, i just saw in Twitter a gif (meme) about Monero Comunity Workgroup "LLC"
2020-08-05T23:40:54 0 <Lovera[m]> Are the team behind that page turning  on a legit institution? If yes, i think maybe is better to change the name "Comunity " ??
2020-08-05T23:43:49 0 <xmrscott[m]> sgp_:  rehrar : needmoney90 : ^
2020-08-05T23:43:57 0 <Lovera[m]> There people are comparing Monero Comunity Workgroup like a Electric coin company... 🤣🤣 i think is nonsense, AFAIK MCW is not directly the "Monero Comunity " right?
2020-08-05T23:44:05 0 <sethsimmons> What page?
2020-08-05T23:44:15 1 <xmrscott[m]> geonic's Twitter
2020-08-05T23:44:15 0 <sethsimmons> Twitter account I mean
2020-08-05T23:44:18 0 <sethsimmons> Oh
2020-08-05T23:44:19 0 <sethsimmons> Of course
2020-08-05T23:44:49 0 <Lovera[m]> xmrscott: yes, exactly! You know him
2020-08-05T23:45:02 0 <sgp_> Lol
2020-08-05T23:45:09 0 <xmrscott[m]> Lovera: You're correct, basically the three I pinged above are exploring creating an LLC to sponsor things like a forum outside of reddit, etc
2020-08-05T23:45:10 0 <sgp_> Good faith huh
2020-08-05T23:45:20 0 <xmrscott[m]> Nothing crazy is changing
2020-08-05T23:45:40 0 <xmrscott[m]> -community will still be owned by Core team, etc
2020-08-05T23:45:51 0 <needmoney90> Lovera no, it is not the community. Its a potential future LLC used to organize payments/funds and an umbrella for a number of social media accounts (so they're not in the hands of one person, in case of disinterest/(please no) death or something).
2020-08-05T23:46:14 0 <jwinterm> https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/community
2020-08-05T23:46:15 0 <needmoney90> With the ability to decide who has access to what accounts, among other things.
2020-08-05T23:46:24 0 <jwinterm> Monero Hamlet Workgroup
2020-08-05T23:46:30 0 <sgp_> Lovera[m]: there is nothing to worry about. There is no entity that represents Monero to the extent the ECC and ZF represent Zcash. That is an egregious false equivalency
2020-08-05T23:46:55 0 <rehrar> Link to tweetM
2020-08-05T23:46:57 0 <rehrar> ?
2020-08-05T23:47:05 0 <sgp_> https://twitter.com/_geonic/status/1291110165312237568?s=19
2020-08-05T23:47:13 0 <jwinterm> Monero Body Politic LLC
2020-08-05T23:47:14 0 <sgp_> Best to ignore
2020-08-05T23:47:21 0 <sgp_> 2 likes lol
2020-08-05T23:47:34 0 <sethsimmons> Yeah just ignore, not a big deal.
2020-08-05T23:47:48 0 <sethsimmons> Just another sign he has no interest in actually engaging in a meaningful way.
2020-08-05T23:47:51 0 <dsc_> lol jw
2020-08-05T23:47:57 0 <sgp_> Sad :/
2020-08-05T23:47:58 0 <jwinterm> wownero and thunderosa such traitors
2020-08-05T23:47:59 0 <jwinterm> wow
2020-08-05T23:48:04 0 <dsc_> :DDD
2020-08-05T23:48:09 0 <sgp_> He helped a lot for Monero Means Money
2020-08-05T23:48:26 0 <jwinterm> Monero Neck of the Woods LLC
2020-08-05T23:48:30 0 <jwinterm> has a nice ring to it
2020-08-05T23:48:55 0 <Lovera[m]> <xmrscott[m] "Lovera: You're correct, basicall"> Oh!! Nice! I think is a good idea, so what is the problem?
2020-08-05T23:49:04 0 <needmoney90> Corporations big bad
2020-08-05T23:49:17 0 <sgp_> Lovera[m]: we want to set up a bunch more community resources
2020-08-05T23:49:35 0 <sgp_> Things like forums, storage, task boards, etc
2020-08-05T23:49:47 1 <xmrscott[m]> Lovera:  geonic wants a forum ran by a single individual like Thyrmos of BitcoinTalk or something or likes trolling, who knows
2020-08-05T23:49:50 0 <sgp_> Twitter alternative Mastodon
2020-08-05T23:50:00 0 <needmoney90> they keep conflating this with stuff like blockstream, ECC, the ethereum foundation, despite none of those being reasonable comparisons
2020-08-05T23:50:12 0 <sethsimmons> No they’re not at all similar lol
2020-08-05T23:50:38 0 <needmoney90> we have grown large enough that potentially thousands of dollars a year will be flowing through individual hands
2020-08-05T23:50:40 0 <Lovera[m]> <sgp_ "Lovera: there is nothing to worr"> Yes i know, is not a right equivalency... Is something like Monero Outreach right? Is a separate from "Monero" like ecosystem
2020-08-05T23:50:53 0 <sgp_> Yeah, there's a level of separation
2020-08-05T23:50:54 0 <needmoney90> and that kind of requires some sort of legal structure
2020-08-05T23:50:55 0 <needmoney90> forgive us
2020-08-05T23:52:04 0 <sgp_> Lovera[m]: I can see your passion on Twitter, thanks for being here :)
2020-08-05T23:52:20 0 <sethsimmons> Same here, thankful for all your outreach on Twitter!
2020-08-05T23:53:57 0 <geonic> <sethsimmons> Just another sign he has no interest in actually engaging in a meaningful way. <- I've offered to help with what are being given as the reasons this LLC needs to exist in the first place. So far, no takers. I'll continue to offer my help, regardless of whether you think it's meaningful or not.
2020-08-05T23:54:29 1 <sgp_> geonic: you don't seem like a cool-headed person to serve in a leadership position to me
2020-08-05T23:55:13 0 <sgp_> So best of luck. I can't control what you do, but I hope you see your actions as destructive
2020-08-05T23:55:20 0 <Lovera[m]> sethsimmons: sgp_ thanks guys 🙏
2020-08-05T23:55:20 0 <geonic> where did I say I want to be in a leadership position?
2020-08-05T23:55:56 0 <sgp_> We need people to take ownership of tasks
2020-08-05T23:55:57 0 <niocbrrrrrr> needmoney90: certainly more money goes through core than thru the cwg
2020-08-05T23:56:21 0 <needmoney90> afaik core has some sort of legal structure there
2020-08-05T23:56:26 0 <needmoney90> fluffypony can you comment?
2020-08-05T23:57:24 0 <niocbrrrrrr> I have no idea but do you think pony needs to comment?
2020-08-05T23:57:36 0 <sgp_> Why comment? To perpetuate irrational fear?
2020-08-05T23:57:50 0 <needmoney90> Nah, I just recall some sort of legal structure being in place for core
2020-08-05T23:58:00 0 <niocbrrrrrr> Ok
2020-08-05T23:58:45 0 <jwinterm> wtf is this? https://www.moneropaymentsolutions.com/
2020-08-05T23:58:48 0 <niocbrrrrrr> sgp_: not sure who your comment was directed at
2020-08-05T23:59:02 0 <sgp_> Mostly nm
2020-08-05T23:59:22 0 <geonic> spg_ I didn't take ownership of the tasks I handled for MMM? it's kind of disappointing that you feel like you need to give out qualifications.
2020-08-05T23:59:47 0 <sgp_> Monero Payment Solutions with "100% Transparency" haha
2020-08-06T00:13:26 0 <geonic> https://youtu.be/qr9YlCaPjMk?t=598
2020-08-06T00:13:50 0 <geonic> seems like I was level headed enough for you when we actually worked together. but now that we have different opinions, I'm not. OK.
2020-08-06T00:15:17 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> Making a business out of the title “Monero Community” is not very ideal. I am all for businesses forming to support the Monero community, but when the business itself is called the Monero Community (Workgroup) that is not very good optics and may cause quite a bit of confusion and frustration.
2020-08-06T00:15:18 0 <kinghat[m]> will we see a return of xeagu?
2020-08-06T00:15:33 0 <kinghat[m]> 🍿
2020-08-06T00:16:08 0 <needmoney90> this was already discussed haelan
2020-08-06T00:16:12 0 <needmoney90> the name is up for change
2020-08-06T00:16:24 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> 👍
2020-08-06T00:16:43 0 <xmrscott[m]> kinghat:  Funny that
2020-08-06T00:16:51 0 <xmrscott[m]> https://twitter.com/realxeagu
2020-08-06T00:17:01 0 <xmrscott[m]> (Came back online Jul 26)
2020-08-06T00:18:03 0 <kinghat[m]> thats and interesting comeback
2020-08-06T00:18:32 0 <kinghat[m]> were there ppl trying to impersonate xeagu?
2020-08-06T00:20:09 0 <xmrscott[m]> Not that I'm aware of, but it's been a long time. The only trolls that were countertrolled w/ people impersonating (allegedly, could have been a false flag op for all I care) was thethrowaway21
2020-08-06T00:21:01 0 <xmrscott[m]> There may have been others, I fortunately don't see trolls too much
2020-08-06T00:28:10 0 <sgp_> xmrhaelan: the company name will be different, absolutely
2020-08-06T00:31:51 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> That's some meaty drama over the idea of setting up an LLC to pay for hosting costs
2020-08-06T00:32:20 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> If y'all put the CoC in the bylaws people's heads will explode
2020-08-06T00:33:49 0 <kinghat[m]> how is the hosting costs paid for atm?
2020-08-06T00:34:20 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> Out of pocket by individuals from what I gather
2020-08-06T00:37:33 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> All sounds sensible to me, it isn't more centralised to have an LLC control these resources rather than individuals.
2020-08-06T00:38:02 0 <kinghat[m]> 🤷‍♂️ dont know hows its currently handled
2020-08-06T00:38:10 0 <kinghat[m]>  * 🤷‍♂️ dont know how its currently handled
2020-08-06T00:38:21 0 <sethsimmons> <xmrmatterbridge "<cankerwort> All sounds sensible"> Well said, definitely agree here.
2020-08-06T00:41:40 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> Some of the drama and tangential conversations of hypotheticals may seem overblown, but skepticism to the point of irrational paranoia is what makes Monero great
2020-08-06T00:42:03 0 <sethsimmons> It’s certainly a common theme in serious discussions around here 😅
2020-08-06T00:42:25 0 <sethsimmons> Which is not a bad thing.
2020-08-06T00:42:25 0 <sethsimmons> As long as we can get into the details and have strong and reasonable discussions.
2020-08-06T00:43:32 0 <needmoney90> but corporations are centralization! /s
2020-08-06T00:44:22 0 <selsta> I wouldn’t want a corp for monero dev
2020-08-06T00:44:48 0 <sethsimmons> There isn’t one needed there since Core handles infra/costs/etc AFAIK
2020-08-06T00:44:55 0 <kinghat[m]> separation of church and state
2020-08-06T00:45:04 0 <needmoney90> we already did that
2020-08-06T00:45:09 0 <needmoney90> 👀
2020-08-06T00:45:17 0 <sethsimmons> What do you mean?
2020-08-06T00:45:23 0 <needmoney90> church of monero shit
2020-08-06T00:45:27 0 <sethsimmons> Oh that
2020-08-06T00:45:28 0 <sethsimmons> Lol
2020-08-06T00:45:29 0 <kinghat[m]> the clergy can take many forms
2020-08-06T00:45:35 0 <sgp_> I want to forget
2020-08-06T00:45:39 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> Vintage drama
2020-08-06T00:45:41 0 <sethsimmons> That was a “yikes” time
2020-08-06T00:45:51 0 <sethsimmons> Glad that’s behind us
2020-08-06T00:45:52 0 <sgp_> vintage drama is great to make fun of now
2020-08-06T00:45:53 0 <needmoney90> I will say, I actually just recently participated in their 100th mass.
2020-08-06T00:45:57 0 <needmoney90> They made it nearly two years
2020-08-06T00:46:01 0 <needmoney90> thought I'd give them a little credit
2020-08-06T00:46:02 0 <sgp_> I participated in their first
2020-08-06T00:46:07 0 <sgp_> then noped out
2020-08-06T00:47:10 0 <kinghat[m]> <sethsimmons "There isn’t one needed there sin"> if core handles this why is there a community need for incorporation?
2020-08-06T00:47:24 0 <sethsimmons> Core can’t/shouldn’t handle it for every community group that springs up
2020-08-06T00:47:27 0 <sethsimmons> IMO
2020-08-06T00:47:52 0 <kinghat[m]> what is core handling for the community group?
2020-08-06T00:48:00 0 <sethsimmons> Nothing AFAIK
2020-08-06T00:48:05 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> Core just wants to deal with the core functions of being a FLOSS project from what I can tell
2020-08-06T00:48:08 0 <sethsimmons> Thus the proposal 🙂
2020-08-06T00:48:15 0 <kinghat[m]> wat?
2020-08-06T00:48:16 0 <sethsimmons> FLOSS 😂
2020-08-06T00:48:21 0 <sgp_> well, Mattermost is one example
2020-08-06T00:48:25 0 <sgp_> we use that
2020-08-06T00:49:00 0 <sethsimmons> Should just use Matrix/Element 😉
2020-08-06T00:49:04 0 <kinghat[m]> who uses mattermost? isnt mattermost free?
2020-08-06T00:49:13 0 <sgp_> they host it lol
2020-08-06T00:49:16 0 <sgp_> costs $$$
2020-08-06T00:49:32 0 <sgp_> Zcash stopped hosting their similar Rocket Chat lol. made no sense
2020-08-06T00:49:41 0 <kinghat[m]> this is the official coms of core?
2020-08-06T00:49:53 0 <sgp_> it's an official service of sorts
2020-08-06T00:50:08 0 <kinghat[m]> never heard of anyone here using mattermost
2020-08-06T00:50:14 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> Ahem
2020-08-06T00:50:18 0 <sgp_> many people do
2020-08-06T00:50:29 0 <kinghat[m]> i have it installed on my phone but never used it.
2020-08-06T00:50:42 0 <needmoney90> what do you think people speaking over xmrmatterbridge are doing?
2020-08-06T00:51:18 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> tbf most people think that is a username
2020-08-06T00:51:19 0 <kinghat[m]> didnt realize that was an official bridge from an official server
2020-08-06T00:51:29 0 <needmoney90> I mean it's all unofficial
2020-08-06T00:51:33 0 <needmoney90> But it's unofficially official
2020-08-06T00:51:39 0 <sgp_> just as official as it gets tho
2020-08-06T00:51:49 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> Was the issue of claiming ownership of public commons like #monero-community also already addressed?
2020-08-06T00:51:55 0 <kinghat[m]> the person in core doesnt want to host it anymore?
2020-08-06T00:52:10 0 <needmoney90> Xmrhaelan: that's under the service category
2020-08-06T00:52:21 0 <needmoney90> Specifically, moderation of community meetings and moderators in general
2020-08-06T00:52:28 0 <sgp_> basically this workgroup moderates, though if we fuck up, Core takes over
2020-08-06T00:52:36 0 <kinghat[m]> defcon videos are bing posted btw
2020-08-06T00:53:14 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> Sgp is that in the bylaws?
2020-08-06T00:53:21 0 <needmoney90> No, that's freenode
2020-08-06T00:53:34 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> Ahh I see
2020-08-06T00:53:34 0 <needmoney90> Freenode gives Core authority to take over any #monero- room
2020-08-06T00:53:40 0 <needmoney90> By nature of the platform
2020-08-06T00:53:41 0 <sgp_> if anything it's in Core's equivalent of bylaws
2020-08-06T00:53:54 0 <needmoney90> And core has basically let us run it unless we mess up
2020-08-06T00:54:20 0 <kinghat[m]> man i hope theres something more substantial in the draft than an already hosted mattermost server.
2020-08-06T00:55:47 0 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> You guys should probably break out that table to distinguish between what you perceive as an Asset of the organization and a Service you plan on supporting. As it reads now makes it appear a business is claiming ownership
2020-08-06T00:57:24 0 <sethsimmons> Yeah absolutely need more clarity there
2020-08-06T02:29:07 0 <sgp_> I put together the memes for the competition Friday :)
2020-08-06T02:29:42 0 <sgp_> I have a streamlined process for making them and downloading them, but I also need to trust people not to cheat lol