Toxin GLA SCUD Launcher is rarely used

[xezon]

Toxin GLA SCUD Launcher is considered useless by players. Why?

Reasons

• It requires 1x Level 1 General Promotion point.
• It requires 1x Palace.
• It causes less damage than other SCUD Launchers.
• Everything else Toxin General has is much better.

Toxin SCUD Launcher weapons with Anthrax Beta

Weapon SCUDLauncherGunAnthrax
  PrimaryDamage         = 200.0
  PrimaryDamageRadius   = 30.0
  SecondaryDamage       = 25.0
  SecondaryDamageRadius = 60.0

Weapon SCUDLauncherGunAnthraxPlusOne
  PrimaryDamage         = 200.0
  PrimaryDamageRadius   = 30.0
  SecondaryDamage       = 25.0
  SecondaryDamageRadius = 60.0

Weapon SCUDLauncherGunAnthraxPlusTwo
  PrimaryDamage         = 250.0
  PrimaryDamageRadius   = 30.0
  SecondaryDamage       = 50.0
  SecondaryDamageRadius = 60.0

Toxin SCUD Launcher weapons with Anthrax Gamma

Weapon Chem_SCUDLauncherGunAnthraxGamma
  PrimaryDamage         = 200.0
  PrimaryDamageRadius   = 30.0
  SecondaryDamage       = 25.0
  SecondaryDamageRadius = 60.0

Weapon Chem_SCUDLauncherGunAnthraxGammaPlusOne
  PrimaryDamage         = 200.0
  PrimaryDamageRadius   = 30.0
  SecondaryDamage       = 25.0
  SecondaryDamageRadius = 60.0

Weapon Chem_SCUDLauncherGunAnthraxGammaPlusTwo
  PrimaryDamage         = 250.0
  PrimaryDamageRadius   = 30.0
  SecondaryDamage       = 50.0
  SecondaryDamageRadius = 60.0

Demo SCUD Launcher weapons

Weapon DEMO_SCUDLauncherGunExplosive
  PrimaryDamage               = 300.0
  PrimaryDamageRadius         = 50.0
  SecondaryDamage             = 50.0
  SecondaryDamageRadius       = 100.0

Weapon DEMO_SCUDLauncherGunExplosivePlusOne
  PrimaryDamage               = 300.0
  PrimaryDamageRadius         = 50.0
  SecondaryDamage             = 50.0
  SecondaryDamageRadius       = 100.0

Weapon DEMO_SCUDLauncherGunExplosivePlusTwo
  PrimaryDamage               = 400.0
  PrimaryDamageRadius         = 50.0
  SecondaryDamage             = 75.0
  SecondaryDamageRadius       = 100.0

Regular SCUD Launcher weapons

Weapon SCUDLauncherGunExplosive
  PrimaryDamage               = 300.0
  PrimaryDamageRadius         = 50.0
  SecondaryDamage             = 50.0
  SecondaryDamageRadius       = 100.0

Weapon SCUDLauncherGunExplosivePlusOne
  PrimaryDamage               = 300.0
  PrimaryDamageRadius         = 50.0
  SecondaryDamage             = 50.0
  SecondaryDamageRadius       = 100.0

Weapon SCUDLauncherGunExplosivePlusTwo
  PrimaryDamage               = 400.0
  PrimaryDamageRadius         = 50.0
  SecondaryDamage             = 75.0
  SecondaryDamageRadius       = 100.0

Weapon findings

• Toxin SCUD deals exact same damage with Anthrax Beta and Anthrax Gamma
• Toxin SCUD deals 33% less damage at Scrap 0 and Scrap 1 than other SCUDs
• Toxin SCUD deals 37% less damage at Scrap 2 than other SCUDs
• Toxin SCUD deals damage in 40% less radius than other SCUDs

Proposal 1

Remove General Promotion requirement.

Proposal 2

Increase damages.

Proposal 3

Increase damages with Anthrax Gamma. (Done)

• Change: Increase Anthrax Gamma poison field damage bonus by 20% #2012

Proposal 4

Increase damage radius.

Proposal 5

Increase damage radius with Anthrax Gamma.

[xezon]

I think it is fine SCUD Launcher is weaker. Toxin General is good enough with everything else it has.

[xezon]

Giving it some bonus for Anthrax Gamma would be reasonable though.

[commy2]

It's still effective counter artillery in spam games as it one shots other long range units.
In the same way that the Tox Scud Launcher lacks HE missiles, the Tox Bomb Truck lacks HE bombs, so that unit is also worse than the vGLA variant. It's fine and even necessary that sub-factions have drawbacks.

If anything, toxin missiles on any Scud Launcher are underpowered. Contrary to Toxin Truck contamination, the poison cloud just doesn't last long enough to matter (and can be cleaned up with Nuke/Toxin shells).

Wouldn't touch this. It works fine as is.

[ImTimK]

It's still effective counter artillery in spam games as it one shots other long range units. In the same way that the Tox Scud Launcher lacks HE missiles, the Tox Bomb Truck lacks HE bombs, so that unit is also worse than the vGLA variant. It's fine and even necessary that sub-factions have drawbacks.

If anything, toxin missiles on any Scud Launcher are underpowered. Contrary to Toxin Truck contamination, the poison cloud just doesn't last long enough to matter (and can be cleaned up with Nuke/Toxin shells).

Wouldn't touch this. It works fine as is.

Can make it cheaper, but otherwise I have difficulty aswell to change anything else, even though it's mega bad and there being zero reason to spend a genpoint. Removing the genpoint is strange aswell and inconsistent with other GLA's.

[Jundiyy]

Yup, think it is fine as is. It is used in rare cases in 1v1s but more common in FFA.
At most, $100 cheaper might work.

As mentioned above, Tox has enough powerful units.

[MTKing4]

I too think it shouldn't be changed.

[ImTimK]

Still it feels weird to have such expensive unit in the game that costs a genpoint, but is totally useless.

Here a few big nono's though:

• Buffing the explosion strength, Tox already powerful enough.
• Removing genpoint, makes it inconsistent with other GLA's.

I would still like to do something about it and we have these two options imo:

• Buffing the size of the Toxin Cloud.
• Reduce price to 900-1000.
• Remove the unit completely from Tox, same like Stealth doesn't have it.

[xezon]

I think some data is missing in opening post. Regular GLA also has Anthrax SCUD missile. Should check if Anthrax SCUD missile is competitive, or pretty much useless compared to Explosive SCUD missile.

[Stubbjax]

There's not much that can be done here. It already creates a large, long-lasting toxin field.

[ImTimK]

I forgot price, in 1.04 it's 1200 for all factions (GLA/Tox/Demo). In the current state it's definitely not worth this amount of money, could make it 900-1000.

[commy2]

It's odd that Anthrax Gamma does nothing for the Tox Scud Launcher, but I guess buffing the gamma fields changes that.

Neither does AP Rockets help the Tox Scud Launcher, while it does buff the vGLA Scud Launcher in HE mode, as well as the Demo Scud Launcher.

It's a bad unit and all upgrades fail on it too.

[xezon]

Poor Toxin Generals so weak :(

[ImTimK]

Make toxins last longer, the only acceptable buff imo.

[xezon]

We could also increase the secondary damage of the Anthrax missiles by 16.66% and 33.33% like on the Scud Storm missiles. Then is consistent.

[ImTimK]

Primary dmg isn't consistent anyway, so I don't see the point really.

Tox just doesn't need strong scud launchers.

[xezon]

Primary dmg isn't consistent anyway, so I don't see the point really.

What does this mean?

[ImTimK]

Tox Scudstorm has same primary damage (before it was stronger) as the Vanilla Scudstorm, however Tox Scudlauncher has lower damage than the Vanilla one. It's inconsistent already.

[xezon]

I still do not understand.

[ImTimK]

Given that fact, why should the secondary damage be consistent?

[xezon]

It does not have to be. Was just a suggestion so that the Anthrax makes some difference like it does on the Scud Storm with its +16.66, +33.33 secondary damage.

[ImTimK]

Suggestion is fair, but there should be a good reason to go through with it.

[xezon]

Toxin GLA SCUD Launcher is rarely used

:D

[commy2]

• Scud Launcher in Poison mode is bad compared to HE mode (-50% damage, 30 instead of 50 damage radius)
• Anthrax Beta or Anthrax Gamma does not change primary/secondary damage or damage radius
• Anthrax Beta does increase poison field damage by 25%
• Anthrax Gamma does nothing to poison field damage

-> so Tox Scud Launcher does not benefit from Anthrax Gamma at all, despite the colour change of the poison cloud/explosion. There is no increase in damage, damage radius or damage over time with the poison field. The upgrade is entirely cosmetic

That said, I think Scud Launchers are annoying when spammed, so I'd rather not buff them at all.

[ImTimK]

Toxin GLA SCUD Launcher is rarely used

:D

Please stop being so cheeky.

On topic: I think there are other ways to make them to them more attractive, like lowering the price, or buffing poison fields. Something that doesn't buff them directly (too much).

However it could be approached the opposite way aswell, make them stronger but increase the price at the same time.

[xezon]

None of my replies were meant to be condescending. Toxin Scud Launcher, according to this report, is rarely used. Making it more attractive by increasing Anthrax Gamma damage does make sense. Actually that is already a Proposal, Number 3.

Toxin General has received notable nerfs already. Giving back some strength where it originally lacked is ok too.

[MTKing4]

Considering all the nerfs toxin general has gotten so far, it might not be so bad to re-look into this.

But first let's clearfy some things

It's already buffed by the suggested gamma puddle damage increase #2012 correct?

Any other indirect buffs do we have?

Is the gamma buff enough?

What else can be done here that doesn't over buff it?

-> so Tox Scud Launcher does not benefit from Anthrax Gamma at all, despite the colour change of the poison cloud/explosion. There is no increase in damage, damage radius or damage over time with the poison field. The upgrade is entirely cosmetic

This isn't the case any more after #2012 correct? If so there's nothing else that needs to be changed.

Neither does AP Rockets help the Tox Scud

Good point about the AP rockets, I'd hate it to have an upgrade that doesn't benefit a unit that is clearly in the same category, but how much of an impact does that make? It's a bit in lategame where this upgrade is purchased, i think it depends, if it makes a little difference i think it's ok to add, we'd need to test that

[xezon]

#2012 is just a minor buff for Toxin General. In most circumstances it will make no tangible difference, because the damage output of all small and medium fields is low. Combined with #2023 I expect its impact to be a bit better for Gamma Scud Storm puddles, but Gamma Scud Storm was nerfed, so it remains a net nerf.

#2023 is a major buff for all hazard factions, China and GLA, except China Infantry.

[xezon]

Proposal 3 done.