Upgraded Vanilla Overlords should be as fast as Nuke Overlords?

[ImTimK]

With the Nuclear Tanks upgrade Vanilla Overlords are still slower than Nukes Overlords, should they be just as fast?

[MTKing4]

I think that would be a good change yes, right now it's not that worth it to upgrade

[Jundiyy]

No from me, they are given a 50% speed and end up the same speed as Crusaders.
Nuke Ovies have a special speed dedicated to them and I think they should stay like that.

[Stubbjax]

With the Nuclear Tanks upgrade Vanilla Overlords are still slower than Nukes Overlords, should they be just as fast?

Including Emperors?

No from me, they are given a 50% speed and end up the same speed as Crusaders. Nuke Ovies have a special speed dedicated to them and I think they should stay like that.

Comments like this are not very helpful. Explain why!

[xezon]

Anything that buffs China Late game is a reasonable suggestion, because China Late game is the worst. Weakest economy, weakest superweapons, weakest units. However, keep in mind, buffing too many things can make China overpowered too.

[Jundiyy]

@ Stubbjax, I did give a reason, I said the special speed should be linked to Nuke Gen only, it's a Nuke thing. Just like the someone posted about Super Weapon Chinooks getting PDL, it's an Air thing.

Whilst I can't disagree that anything which buffs China units is an improvement, I don't think we should change unit stats unless totally broken in terms of how the unit works. We should keep the original game where we can and this is something where we can. China isn't meant to be an Ovy spam, the way it works is a spam of mixed units, that is what makes China strong, which is why on maps where it can spam, it does do better and also why it does better in 1.04+ due to a mix of units being possible on normal maps.

China Ovies are rarely seen as China doesn't get too far into late game most of the time, and when it does, you will sometimes see a single one here and there to benefit from enthusiasm and be a meat shield.

[Stubbjax]

@ Stubbjax, I did give a reason, I said the special speed should be linked to Nuke Gen only, it's a Nuke thing. Just like the someone posted about Super Weapon Chinooks getting PDL, it's an Air thing.

You are conflating two fundamentally different concepts. The proposal here is to standardise the Nuclear Tanks upgrade with the way inherent upgrades work for other factions, such as Infantry General starting with Patriotism, Stealth General starting with Camouflage, Toxin General starting with Toxin Shells and Anthrax Beta, etc. In this case, Nuke would simply start with Nuclear Tanks, with other China factions possessing the same potential in being able to research it and acquire the same benefits.

Whilst I can't disagree that anything which buffs China units is an improvement, I don't think we should change unit stats unless totally broken in terms of how the unit works.

Why? Does that mean you would be against tweaking underused units like Sentry Drones, Bomb Trucks, Stealth Fighters, etc. to be more viable? Because those units certainly don't belong in the 'totally broken' category.

We should keep the original game where we can and this is something where we can.

The game should feel the same. That does not limit the number of changes, only the perceived impact of said changes. Some of the most effective changes are those that players don't notice.

China isn't meant to be an Ovy spam, the way it works is a spam of mixed units, that is what makes China strong, which is why on maps where it can spam, it does do better and also why it does better in 1.04+ due to a mix of units being possible on normal maps.

Who decides how China is meant to be played? Aren't all China factions designed around spam? Regardless, I doubt this proposal would buff Overlords to the point that they become one-man armies. It is a slight speed boost that only affects late-game, after all.

China Ovies are rarely seen as China doesn't get too far into late game most of the time, and when it does, you will sometimes see a single one here and there to benefit from enthusiasm and be a meat shield.

China Overlords being so rare / impractical is likely part of the reason this proposal was put forward.

[ImTimK]

The proposal here is to standardise the Nuclear Tanks upgrade with the way inherent upgrades work for other factions, such as Infantry General starting with Patriotism, Stealth General starting with Camouflage, Toxin General starting with Toxin Shells and Anthrax Beta, etc. In this case, Nuke would simply start with Nuclear Tanks, with other China factions possessing the same potential in being able to research it and acquire the same benefits.

This is also how I see the upgrade, comparable with nationalism, anthrax beta, tox shells etc. Accessible with vanilla armies aswell, but paid for and later down the tech tree.

Especially since it’s all the way down the tech tree, which requires MASSIVE investments, I think it shouldn’t be inferior.

I also do understand how Jundiyy sees Nukes free version as exclusive upgrade like Anthrax Gamma or Patriotism, but imo there’s a difference since these are not free from the start of the game. I think Isotope Stability would be on the same level instead.

[penfriendz]

Will BMs and OLs get nuclear patches too after uranium shells upgrade? I always thought that since Nuke starts with nuclear tanks and uranium shells that the upgrades should have an equivalent effect for the other Chinas. Until I found out that they didnt :)

[ReLaX82]

I would make them slower as Nuke ones, as its nuke advantage.
Including all buffs for China and the overall balance quite at the end I would consider a small boost in speed reasonable.

[xezon]

This report has been covered with

• Change: Increase China Overlord speed by 25%, upgraded speed by 16% #1813

The patched upgraded China Overlord is not as fast as the original Nuke Overlord, but a bit faster than the original China Overlord.