Make it easier to open other apps and files in a running DisposableVM

[lattice0]

The problem you're addressing (if any)
If I open a new DispVM, I cannot (easily) open other apps in the same DispVM. If I do through the qubes menu, it opens a new DispVM with the new App.

Describe the solution you'd like
It'd be better if, when I opened, for example, Firefox in a DispVm called DispVM 3412, then DispVM 3412 appears in the Qubes menu just as other VMs do, so I can launch other apps other than Firefox inside it, not in a new one.

Where is the value to a user, and who might that user be?
In my case I want to test random github projects that require, for example, installing through terminal, browsing files, opening vscode, all inside one VM. Then I want everything to go away with the click of a button (shutdown VM). It's much better than creating a VM just for that and then erasing it.
But I see people using this for any kind of problems

[marmarek]

You can open terminal using domains widget (Q icon). But generally using multiple applications in a single DisposableVM may be confusing, as DisposableVM is destroyed as soon as you close the "primary" application (the one started initially) - regardless of what else is running there.

[brendanhoar]

If I want to use a disposable VM for more than just a one-time task like opening a PDF of unknown providence (the intended purpose), I usually just start the disposableVM via the "Xfce Terminal" (whonix) or Xterm (fedora).

I then open another terminal window from that "original" terminal window and minimize it to reduce the chances of shutdown without intention.

Then use the secondary terminal window to execute commands/applications.

B

[ninavizz]

Ohboyy I did not know this is how things work today. Will give this some thought in the updated AppMenu design.

[deeplow]

There is a way to currently do this, but it takes some configuration. I should make a guide about it as now all that exists are a documentation page on something related and a discussion on the forum.

The solution is to have a named dispVM and configuring the qubes.OpenInVM with something like:

srcVM $dispvm allow,target=namedDispVM

One thing the user would also need to do is to have the qubes-app-shutdown-idle package installed because now the qube doesn't shut down as soon as the user closes the viewing application (because there may be multiple).

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(slightly more) User-friendly implementation

In a qube's settings under Advanced tab » Other, there is the option Default DisposableVM Template. Currently only DisposableVM Templates there, but it would be nice to have the option to select Named DisposableVMs.

The user would still need to create said Named DisposableVM via the terminal and install the qubes-app-shutdown-idle package. But it would avoid having to mess with Qubes RPC configurations.

[SvenSemmler]

the qube doesn't shut down as soon as the user closes the viewing application (because there may be multiple).

Are you sure? If I start a DispVM with let's say Firefox and then I also open an XTerm. As soon as I close the Firefox window the qube shutsdown with XTerm and all. It's easy to imagine a user losing hours of work that way if unaware.

[deeplow]

Yes, some more thought will need to be given to the shut down behavior in a way that does not surprise the user. I mention here another possible solution: shutting down the VM when all windows are closed.

[ninavizz]

This mockup is one of the leading candidate solutions for a new appmenu (for the first 2 releases, based on survey feedback thus far). It demonstrates the disp-vm functionality suggested in this issue. This feels like the most intuitive way to reflect this functionality in the appmenu.

The ability to shut down VMs within the appmenu will likely be included in the forthcoming appmenu redesign (yep, that has been responded to quite favorably in the survey). Thoughts (on just the disp-vm part of this, relevant to this issue)?

I am not comfortable with shutting down the VM by default, if any files have been saved to its File Manager in the use of another app—but if nothing has been downloaded or created/saved, then it makes sense to shut down the disp-vm with the closure of the last application open in it.

[andrewdavidwong]

It demonstrates the disp-vm functionality suggested in this issue.

Where? I'm not seeing any DisposableVMs in the menu.

[ninavizz]

@andrewdavidwong datascrub is the template for the disp-vm, and then 3573-datascrub is the running disp-vm.

What are you "seeing" instead?

[andrewdavidwong]

@andrewdavidwong datascrub is the template for the disp-vm, and then 3573-datascrub is the running disp-vm.

What are you "seeing" instead?

Oh, I was looking for an entry like disp1234, since that's how DisposableVMs are named in Qubes.

[DemiMarie]

@andrewdavidwong datascrub is the template for the disp-vm, and then 3573-datascrub is the running disp-vm.
What are you "seeing" instead?

Oh, I was looking for an entry like disp1234, since that's how DisposableVMs are named in Qubes.

Nit: That is how automatically created DisposableVMs are named. Manually-created DisposableVMs (often called “named DispVMs”) can be named anything the user wishes.

[andrewdavidwong]

@andrewdavidwong datascrub is the template for the disp-vm, and then 3573-datascrub is the running disp-vm.
What are you "seeing" instead?

Oh, I was looking for an entry like disp1234, since that's how DisposableVMs are named in Qubes.

Nit: That is how automatically created DisposableVMs are named. Manually-created DisposableVMs (often called “named DispVMs”) can be named anything the user wishes.

Sure, but then I would have expected something like, "In this screenshot, we've created a static DisposableVM named X." At first, I thought creo was the DisposableVM, since that's the one with the open menu. But then I thought, "Wait, there's no indication that that's a DisposableVM, so that must not be it. But then where is it?" which led to my question.

So, one important takeaway is to indicate to the user which of these VMs are disposable and which are not.

[deeplow]

This feels like the most intuitive way to reflect this functionality in the appmenu.

Quite an interesting approach. I like it 👍

[ninavizz]

Nit: That is how automatically created DisposableVMs are named. Manually-created DisposableVMs (often called “named DispVMs”) can be named anything the user wishes.

Sure, but then I would have expected something like, "In this screenshot, we've created a static DisposableVM named X." At first, I thought creo was the DisposableVM, since that's the one with the open menu. But then I thought, "Wait, there's no indication that that's a DisposableVM, so that must not be it. But then where is it?" which led to my question.

All of the above, needs to be self-evident when looking at a UI at first glance (with familiar semiotics—which the qute qubes are not, just yet). Hence, why this will take some iteration. :)

Alrightee... it sounds like there are some conversations that need to happen, around all the incarnation options for disposable VMs. That can happen, and I'll put it on my "to do" list for an async workshop.

One other issue, is that the new icons system has not yet rolled-out... and I don't even have 4.1 on a laptop, to "test" how Marta has implemented the disp-vm icon. I also don't know if the disp-vm's are still currently italicized in the menu, or not. @marmarta when you are home, could we do a quick runthrough of all the Disp-VM incarnations on 4.1 and how icons populate throughout? Also—are the qute-qube icons in window chromes on 4.1, or is that just your own customized thing in a screenshot?

I will work on procuring a laptop to run test builds on, as I probably should have that, anyway. I cannot unfortunately run 4.1 on my SecureDrop Workstation laptop, which thus far is my only Qubes machine.

[ninavizz]

Functionality shown in #6665

[deeplow]

Implementing this will possibly have to change behavior of when a disposable qube shuts down.

Current Behavior

Shut down as soon as the first program opened there is closed. Example:

1. opens pdf in disp1234
2. opens browser in disp1234
3. closes pdf reader and qube shuts down (including the still open browser)

Future Behavior

Shuts down only when all the processes associated with open applications close.

1. opens pdf in disp1234
2. opens browser in disp1234
3. closes pdf reader
4. closes browser
5. qube shuts down

[ninavizz]

@marmarta Has this been done or is it being worked on?